To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

Its worth remembering his original crime was murder, reduced to manslaughter for gruesome reasons. He was released after one year and attacked the shop assistant five days after being released early on licence.

https://4w.pub/male-sex-offender-murderer-paved-way-for/

I mean I know this stuff has happened, but it's just shocking to the core every time a real example is given.

What did the Labour Government say about this?

To go back to the point of the thread was it the left wing position that this was OK because believing that women should be protected from these violent males is seen as a bigoted belief?

Jones was sentenced to 5 years, but was released just one year later on license in 2002.

Good grief!

100 imaginary pounds to anyone who can find those details in the Guardian, Independent, Pink News etc.

To go back to the point of the thread was it the left wing position that this was OK because believing that women should be protected from these violent males is seen as a bigoted belief?

No, the people highlighting and fighting this from the beginning were mostly GC Feminists. They are left wing.

Agreed that most GC feminists come from left wing backgrounds.

But what about the Labour Government? Gordon Brown was in power in 2009, surely he was horrified that this was the impact of the GRA/ EquA?

What about the Guardian and Observer and other left wing media, did they report any of this?
All I can see is that they were scolding left wing feminists for wrong think!

It's no wonder GC feminists feel let down by the left on this.

To go back to the point of the thread was it the left wing position that this was OK because believing that women should be protected from these violent males is seen as a bigoted belief?

No, Labour dont really have much influence over MOJ policy.
Gender ideology in the UK started with the Tories when they had a referendum on self ID; and policy was influenced with help from Conservative ministers including Justine Greening, Maria Miller and Penny Mordaunt.

But this case above happened BEFORE the Tories were in government.

As a result of Labour Acts of parliament which enabled it.

Gender ideology in the UK started with the Tories when they had a referendum on self ID; and policy was influenced with help from Conservative ministers including Justine Greening, Maria Miller and Penny Mordaunt.

This is demonstrably untrue as set out in detail upthread. The enabling acts of parliament were introduced by a Labour Government, those are the Gender Recognition Act and the Equality Act.

I think it's not really possible to blame individual UK governments for starting this nonsense, there has been something of a societal zeitgeist worldwide, with a movement very strongly focussed on particular issues who played a long and quite devious game.

But it is certainly correct to say that GRA and EA were passed under a Labour government. However I don't think the unintended consequences were considered fully then, and the "trans rights" movement did not have the power it does now.

I agree, globally though it does appear to have more traction with the left.

I also think it is unintended consequences of those Acts that were introduced by Labour, but now the consequences are apparent it is essential for all political parties to ensure that vulnerable women are not victims of those consequences. Back in 2009 why didn't anyone in the government say that a consequence should not be to put a violent male in a woman's prison and that was never the purpose of this legislation? This might then have been nipped in the bud.

This idea that women's rights are wrong because they are right wing has come from somewhere. The left leaning press has not helped itself and nor have some politicians of all political persuasions who maintain that TWAW in spite of all of the evidence of the consequences to women.

I think back then there was no expectation it would ever lead in this direction - there was an expectation that transitioning would include surgery, not just cross dressing.
Self ID has created a massive change.

They should have just legalised same sex marriage.

This idea that women's rights are wrong because they are right wing has come from somewhere. The left leaning press has not helped itself and nor have some politicians of all political persuasions who maintain that TWAW in spite of all of the evidence of the consequences to women.

Yes I agree with this. Obviously there was misogyny within the left but I find it utterly bizarre that this ideology is prioritised.

DrBalenciaga
Like I said, I'm not comfortable with trans women participation in female sports. I've said earlier in the thread I don't support them in changing rooms - so we all agree there

Does Keir Starmer agree? He is specifically asked about 'changing rooms' in this LBC clip;

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/keir-starmer-lashes-out-intolerance-transgender-issues/

I accord people respect for their beliefs on the most part. Belief is fine, people can believe pretty much anything, even better if they can back that up philosophically but it's not essential.

As with any belief though, making adherence mandatory for non believers is a bit shite and um, totalitarian.

Beliefs and quantifiable fact are not equal though.

OneTC

I think it is remarkable how the Guardian staff letter has somehow been twisted to being just them holding 'different opinions'....

That some posters think 'But the pattern of publishing transphobic content has interfered with our work and cemented our reputation as a publication hostile to trans rights and trans employees' is not totalitarian and authoritarian is surprising. It really seems to be like those words have a special meaning when applied to some trans people and allies. That they should be able to make demands on publishing policies that others cannot.

As you say, beliefs and quantifiable fact are not equal. And I am with you. I though making adherence for non-believers to perform belief because some people say they feel unsafe with thoughts and expressed opinions that disagree with their own beliefs is more than a bite shite and definitely seems to fall under totalitarian. But then words and meanings have become so fluid and queer theory is all about destabilising the social mores within society.

Absolutely woeful. FFS.

Great debating skills. 🙄

I know it's not the done thing to bring discussion from one thread to another, but this post from PencilsInSpace on the 'GC feminism and white supremacism' thread in FWR seems extremely relevant:

The left will get nowhere castigating women for talking to the right.

We are not your puppets and we are not stupid.

We know the dangers of the right. We know they don't want us to have abortions or same sex relationships.

We know the dangers of the left. We know they want us to accept 'sex work' as empowering and surrogacy as a gay rights issue.

Unfortunately a few years ago a Tory spin doctor came up with the phrase "at least the Tories know what a woman is. It really took off here despite the fact that it's a complete lie.

Quite a few MNetters have expressed their surprise to discover the Tory party's support for the TRA cause. And it's not really surprising when you think of how often the lie was repeated and the RW media's portrayal of it as a Labour/Left wing thing while being silent on TRA support from the Conservatives.

Isn't it funny how Penny Mordaunt changed her mind when she wanted to be leader?

This demonstrates how the Tories have worked out that self ID isn't something to champion and it's certainly not a popular concept amongst the MPs. If it had been, she'd have kept at it and not worried about it losing her votes for the leadership contest.

I read that post before it was deleted. It is disgusting that you were accused of being a closet paedophile due to another poster's ignorance and political allegiances.

Media manipulation is real and you were right to highlight it @DrBalenciaga. I'm sorry for the petty, nasty, personal attacks you have been subjected to on a thread I started.

Thank TooBig. That was a step too far. I've had to change my username now. I only chose it as I liked the melodic sound of the words together.