To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

There is an entire board dedicated to feminism and gender issues. The majority of the posts are talking about trans people and how they are an issue.

There has always been a feminism board on Mumsnet and for many years this topic has been discussed there. The more recent split to create the "sex and gender" board, was requested by pro trans supporters, who of course now don't bother posting on their own board.

I don't think that's entirely unfair, tbh.

I'd say it's more I'm pro women especially the male ones

I don't think that's entirely unfair, tbh.

It really depends on the type of feminism. The sort that's rooted in material reality of women's bodies - not at all. Oddly enough, that used to be a very far left position.

So you area TERF then? 😂

Exactly. I'd never vote Tory.
The definition of what a woman and man are in law isn't a left/right thing, or a niche thing.

I’m thinking specifically of Simone de Beauvoir and Julia Kristeva. We can attribute gender fluidity to the first and intersectionality to the second. Well, intertextuality, to be most correct because Kristeva read books, unlike most contemporary activists.

Anyway, ideas get adapted to the cause du jour, so here we are today.

Indeed. 'Liberal' feminism has done much harm imo.

It really depends on the type of feminism. The sort that's rooted in material reality of women's bodies - not at all. Oddly enough, that used to be a very far left position.

Yes, I more meant the wanky Judith Butler pomo stuff.

@DewHopper

So you area TERF then? 😂

I'm not sure how you interpreted that from my post. I'm none of those things.

Because you said it wasn't ok for a male with a penis to undress next to a teenage girl.

*Rainbowshit
Well if not wanting someone with a penis to be undressing next to my daughter is "far right " then the left have totally lost.

We are referencing the social media propaganda the far-right has generated around this issue, not the specific actions of an individual.

Of course this sort of thing is not okay.

So you're a TERF and by your reckoning a pawn of the far-right. See how it works?

So how do we stop people with a penis undressing beside our daughters if we're not allowed to discuss it for fear of being a pawn of the far-right? 🤔

Your post is quite wordy so I’m struggling to see exactly what you mean.

If what you mean is, people can agree on one specific point, but for different reasons and while holding vastly different values, then yes I agree.

That makes you transphobic if the penis owner identifies as a woman.

Oh but you are a TERF. You don't think a transwoman with a penis should have the right to undress beside our daughters.

Even young, innocent children would see a male who identifies as a woman, and say "that's a man". My 3yo would be able to identify a man correctly, and would probably call out "why's a man in here" if he was in the women's changing room, because she understands that changing rooms are sex separate (daddy goes in the men's).

Hmm, which category would op put my 3yo into?! Is my 3yo a trans exclusionary radical feminist?! Or a Trumpian? Or a member of an oppressive religion??

Or how about, she just has eyes and common sense. Along with pretty much everyone else, young and old.

So many of us women hold right wing beliefs!

Astonishing.

Even my dog knows what a woman is - humps me enthusiastically at every opportunity but no interest in the four males in the household!

Your dog's a nazi, evil bigot.

First of all: no one but a sliver of british society cares about these terms or this niche hysteria about trans people as the great ooga booga.

@pikkumyy77 I would counter no one but a sliver of society believes men can “become” women.

Particularly once it is clarified that those men retain their penis.

Trans people aren’t the great ooga booga. How puerile.

Allowing men, regardless of gender identity, to legally access women’s spaces destroys countless rights of women. If transwomen activists did not demand this, there would be no issue.

Boy George and Marilyn and countless ‘gender bending’ (how quaint a term) people in the 80s had no difficulty in understanding their gender expression and their sex were different.

The left has lost it's mind on this issue. Left leaning women are flabbergasted that it is seen as progressive to remove women's rights to single sex spaces

I don't understand what you're talking about here. In many places, there has never really been a right to single sex spaces. There's never been legislation that dictates who needs to use which bathroom or changing room. Trans people have been using whichever they like since...ever.

Hospital wards, DV shelters, prisons and places which may need more consideration, have been dealing with trans people sensitively and on a case by case basis since...ever. The law right now protects the right of these places to use their judgement, and I can't see that changing. I wouldn't want it to change either.

Sunak and other politicians have seized upon the vitorol and are turning it in to a giant political issue.

How exactly would you enforce access to these spaces anyway? Would you like to be able to call the police and have a person arrested if you suspect they are trans in the ladies room? Have doctors sacked or arrested if they use their judgement and admit a TW on to a ward?
How would you ensure that all who enter are correct? Body scanners in each cubicle?

Poppy cock.

The Equality Act 2010 allows service providers to determine single sex provisions and it was only recently that Stonewall has infiltrated to tell them that single sex includes males.

Prior to the equality Act 2010, there was the Sex Discrimination Act which I believe but might be corrected on this made single sex provisions to protect women.

YES! More for the bingo card!

Transwomen have been sharing your spaces for, like, ever and you just never noticed because they pass so well
Body scanners is the new 'genital police' I guess

To answer the other bit, I would like all males to respect the need of women to have single sex spaces for privacy and dignity.

Decent males already do this.

How many women have to be harmed by males in our spaces for women to matter to you?

“Hospitals, DV shelters and prisons MAY need more consideration” my god that’s a shocking thing to say.