To say that just because someone is opposed to " Trans Acceptance Without Exception" it doesn't mean that they are GC or Feminist.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And it's important to understand the difference?

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Radical Feminist POV. Gender is abstract. A societal construct that can be accepted, rejected or adapted throughout life. Gender is different to biological sex which is scientifically binary and immutable so Gender is not really important and not a stable basis for law.

Some oppose Trans Rights Activism from a Feminist POV. Gender might have a biological component. Fine with gender ideology long as biological women's rights, security and single sex spaces are safe with no encroachment from males.

Some oppose Trans Activism because it goes against their religious beliefs. It does not make them GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because they believe in stereotypical gender roles. Men should be men and women should be women. This is not GC or Feminist.

Some oppose it because of misogyny. They hate women. They hate men pretending to be women because it debases men. This is not GC or feminist.

Am i being Unreasonable to say that just because someone is opposed to TRA "acceptance without exception", it doesnt mean they are Gender Critical or feminists. And we need to understand the difference.

Your first two examples, splitting hairs about different types of feminist (in your view) are subtly different.

You quoted me but ignored my main question: why? What purpose does it serve to distinguish between different types of feminist? Are you not being authoritarian in your allocation of feminist views?

Are you hoping that we mumsnetters will nail our colours to your various masts? Or do you have some other aim in view, I'm genuinely asking

I am trying to explain that GC is not a catch-all. It has a specific meaning. It is not a Catch-all. And I'm glad I started it as it shows that the meaning is unclear to some.

I think you misunderstood my point with that flippant reference to Taoists.

My point was, pretty much everyone knows the Earth is round. From across cultures and political affiliations.

Pretty much everyone knows men aren't women. A minority (who are currently politically influential in various directions) pretend they don't. The rest of us know it, and we are of all ages, political leanings, all religions and none. Including Trump supporters and Labour voters and preppers and City bankers and just about everyone. It's independent of our other beliefs because it is just so obvious, like knowing the Earth is round.

Its really the other way around.

First of all: no one but a sliver of british society cares about these terms or this niche hysteria about trans people as the great ooga booga.

Second of all anti trans political and cultural action is just a gateway drug for authoritarian, white nationalist, and misogynistic and anti modernity politics. The right wing propagandists whose propaganda (tik toks, newspaper articles, fox news crap, etc) that you guys pass around like teenagers sharing a joint have been absolutely up front about it. They gin up anti trans, anti gay stuff because it sells and because it splits the liberal coalition. At the same time, to the rest of their supporters, they push anti woman legislation that locks up pregnant women, took abortion away from US women, penalizes gay couples, etc..etc..etc..

The GC movement is what stalinists used to call “useful idiots”—your supposed good intentions are weaponized and mocked by the real misogynists.

@pikkumyy77, when you say "anti trans political and cultural action", do you mean action to defend women's safety, independence, autonomy, freedom and choice? That's what "anti trans" usually means.

Hard to see how it fits in with the anti-women, anti-gay activism you're trying to link to it.

Oh you sweet summer child!

I understood your post perfectly. It nailed what I was saying. GC is not a catch-all for people who know humans can't change sex and people who believe in our right to single sex spaces.

Just as Taoist is not a Catch-all for people who know the earth is round.

Your post about subtle differences between a GC pov and that of gender stereotypes was way off. As was your assertion that both are niche. GC may be a bit niche, but gender stereotyping is ubiquitous as @Coyoacan says.

GC is not a catch-all for people who know humans can't change sex and people who believe in our right to single sex spaces

i think you’re right, the meaning of GC has been changed and not by those who originally called themselves GC

It has been blurred almost to the point of being meaningless. Neither religion nor Trump is GC.

That's why I think it's important to use its correct meaning. All the GC feminists I know are left wing women who wouldn't be caught dead lying down with DT.

This.

I was just reading an article about women being raped and it was described as 'gender based violence'. No one asked those women what gender they identified with before raping them, they were raped because they were female.

Just like female foetuses are aborted in higher numbers in some cultures, and female infants are murdered in higher numbers, and female children have their genitals sliced up and sewn together, and female adolescents are banned from obtaining an education or are sold to old males........

Sex is immutable, it cannot be changed and sex based inequality is a very real issue that needs to be addressed.

This post is an accurate summary of the socio-political movement of the past few years. It has been engineered quite carefully by the extreme far-right using the reach of social media bots. Anti-trans is simply one piece of the chessboard, and you are the pawns, sadly.

DrBalenciaga, . "It has been engineered quite carefully by the extreme far-right using the reach of social media bots. Anti-trans is simply one piece of the chessboard, and you are the pawns, sadly. "

So how can women defend their rights without being accused of being pawns? And don't tell me the negative impact of gender ideology is 'moral panic' because our experiences and the many documented experiences around the world show that the loss of rights is very real

The far-right amplifies any issue it finds and, in doing so, makes it seem much worse and widespread than it actually is. I'm not suggesting anyone shouldn't defend their rights, but equally, you should recognise the larger picture. If you re-tweet a post, consider its source: you could be simply aiding the extreme far-right movement gain further momentum.

I don’t understand the tribalism of identity politics. I agree with people on some issues and violently disagree with them on others. So what, this used to be regarded as normal and utterly unremarkable.

Nothing is going to change the biological reality underpinning the trans issues ; humans cannot change sex.

The far-right amplifies any issue it finds and, in doing so, makes it seem much worse and widespread than it actually is. I'm not suggesting anyone shouldn't defend their rights, but equally, you should recognise the larger picture. If you re-tweet a post, consider its source: you could be simply aiding the extreme far-right movement gain further momentum.

I have two issues with this: apart from the obvious far right people, who goes around vetting everyone's previous tweets, articles, etc? Why does liking an article or a tweet mean you share the same position in everything? I find that a disturbing practice of labelljng people. Also, how do you stop the 'wrong' people from liking your tweet and then you get associated anyway? Like Posie Parker who gets called a nazi because neo nazis turned up at her rally, not to support her, but to heckle antifa who did turn up to protest her rally.

Second issue is what constitutes far-right nowadays? It seems a very vocal group on social media and in real life are moving more and more to the left extreem, making people who were centric, move to the right side as the centric side moves to left. At least I see that happening when I compare political parties manifests (we just had an election where I live) and found the previous centric parties were now considered right as the left moved more and more to the left.

It doesn't help that the boards here have been taken over by the Tory stooges. Pretending that they care about women rights when they would say anything to get votes.

@sanluca

I have two issues with this: apart from the obvious far right people, who goes around vetting everyone's previous tweets, articles, etc? Why does liking an article or a tweet mean you share the same position in everything? I find that a disturbing practice of labelljng people. Also, how do you stop the 'wrong' people from liking your tweet and then you get associated anyway? Like Posie Parker who gets called a nazi because neo nazis turned up at her rally, not to support her, but to heckle antifa who did turn up to protest her rally.

I think it's helpful to be aware of the source of the media you're consuming. Much of it is propaganda - from all across the spectrum. Reading too much from one sphere can be damaging. You can't stop the wrong people from liking your tweets, but you can then block those people or not tweet the kind of information that attracts them in the instance.

Second issue is what constitutes far-right nowadays? It seems a very vocal group on social media and in real life are moving more and more to the left extreem, making people who were centric, move to the right side as the centric side moves to left. At least I see that happening when I compare political parties manifests (we just had an election where I live) and found the previous centric parties were now considered right as the left moved more and more to the left.

This is somewhat ingenuous, as it is fairly clear who and what the far-right entities are. I'm not certain what you mean with the rest of your paragraph.

What utter nonsense! Also, I can at least start to fill in my misogyny bingo card:

Hysteria
No one cares
Anti-gay
Far right
Co-opting USA politics

A new one one on me though...'anti-modernity'! Is it really so modern to pretend that men are women and take away women's rights from them? I would have said that this is hugely regressive myself as are all things in the genderist movement.

You can spit your bile and fury at us - you look ever more ridiculous and you won't shut us up.

Second issue is what constitutes far-right nowadays?

Middle aged left leaning women who understand biology apparently.

Laughable bullshit.

This is somewhat ingenuous, as it is fairly clear who and what the far-right entities are. I'm not certain what you mean with the rest of your paragraph.

No, actually it's not. What is far right and how do I tell? The obvious ones I can filter out, but no, I don't go vetting everyone and no, people who I disagree with on one topic I can agree with on another. I find this principle you have that you can only endorse, retweet, read certain newspapers, articles, tweets distasteful. It is designed to scare people into speaking out. It puts the expectation on mainly women to never go into grey areas because someone might disagree with something someone once said. It is designed to shut people up.

It is not working. I don't care that someone said something racist but writes an amazing article on climate change, I will agree with their article on climate change when the topic is climate change. I will disagree with them on their viewpoint of racism when the topic is racism.

you can then block those people or not tweet the kind of information that attracts them in the instance.

I only block people when they start making threats on X. Blocking has the danger of creating a bubble. Hence me reading across the spectrum to get around algorithms that will also create a bubble for you.

And tweet information that attracts? So when I tweet about men in womens sports and I get some idiot liking my tweets, I am in the wrong for tweeting men in womens sports is wrong and unfair? No. You blaming me for idiots on X, that is what is wrong.

The label “far right” has become utterly meaningless, it is so wrongly applied and overly used it’s a joke.

I don’t understand the tribalism of identity politics. I agree with people on some issues and violently disagree with them on others. So what, this used to be regarded as normal and utterly unremarkable.

Nothing is going to change the biological reality underpinning the trans issues ; humans cannot change sex.

Basically this. Nailed it.