Are mumsneters TERFs

[ChedderGorgeous]

I started a thread on the new taskmaster line up here. This greatly angered a taskmaster fb group who screenshot the conversation and agreed all mumsnetters were TERFs. AIBU to suggest this isn't the general perception of others when you have mentioned mumsnet ? Ps. I still haven't heard of John Robins !

As my name suggests, I do not agree with @Tandora on most things about gender identity. But they are spot on about this.

Previously "gender identity" was seen as a socially formed idea/awareness of oneself as a girl or boy. Because humans develop in a social context. (In the same way one might develop, say, a national identity.) Children start off picking up on broad stereotypes ("I'm a girl, so pink is my colour", "boys have short hair") and as they develop and their thinking becomes more complex, it becomes more nuanced and they can see that there are many examples that do not fit rigid stereotypes, and understand that biological sex is the one constant difference between men and women.

Obviously this development is based on knowing they are male or female; we tell them they are a boy or girl as observed at birth. But the internal feelings are based on social experience.

Trans supporters appear to believe that this gender identity is in fact innate.
Or possibly, they don't believe it is, but would prefer a world where biological sex wasn't the determining factor, where young children could choose at an early enough age so that they have the relevant social experiences to develop a gender identity associated with the opposite sex. This is why social transition is not a neutral act.

Why anyone would want to do that, I don't know. You either end up with an a young person who has to painfully come to terms with being the opposite sex to how they have perceived themselves, or one who's identity is so entrenched in believing they are the opposite sex that they commit to a (shortened) lifetime of health-ruining medication and (poor, experimental) surgery on healthy body parts. Neither are good options.

Yes you are right that definition was too broad. I can't accept your definition though as it includes undefined and unevidenced terms like ' gender identity.' I don't think you can include in a definition a phrase you can't define.

The problem is, the 'trans' umbrella has been expanded to cover such a wide range. It is no longer just people with gender dysphoria. So its no longer just people who feel such discomfort/ alienation with their sexed body that they feel they may feel more comfortable presenting as the other sex ( though its important to say that some people with gender/ sex dysphoria prefer to manage those feelings whilst living as their sex). Gender incongruence now includes children who feel alienation from their bodies for a whole range of reasons, which may include abuse, trauma, or a misdirection of other mental health issues onto their sexed bodies as a way of explaining their mental health issues and offering the (forlorn) hope that changing their bodies will solve their problems. Because things like that happen why you allow ideology to replace proper evidenced medical and scientific approaches to healthcare.

From memory, I don't even think Hilary Cass attempted to define gender incongruence, given the controversies over words on this topic. But maybe my second attempt would be more like ' people who feel such a discomfort or alienation from their bodies that they come to believe they need to alter their bodies, or appearances, to present as the opposite sex or as sex-indeterminate'.

Sure, but my point is that her development of gender identity doesn’t have anything to do with her own perception, knowledge about her genitals.

It may well be that me telling her she is a girl (because of my understanding of her genitals/
chromosomes) has caused her to develop a female gender identity. But that doesn’t explain why , for example, some children develop an understanding of themselves as male, when their parents (and others) have told them they are female.

We still don’t know what causes gender identity development (whether typical or atypical/ trans). All we know is that for the majority of children gender identity / constancy will align with physical / birth sex, but for a small minority of kids it will not. It is likely that socialisation/
psyche and biology all play a role, as is the case with most areas of childhood development.

I would like to think most mumsnetters areTERFs.
We need to stand up for the rights of women and young girls.

Well I have no issue with people being transgender, as long as the movement as a whole doesn't infringe on my rights and my safety as a woman.
So whilst I don't identify as a feminist at all, if that makes me a TERF then so be it.

Children are perceiving the world around them from birth. They are aware there are two sexes as toddlers.

It's good to see so many women not caring at all about labelled with the name misogynists call women who are disobeying the accepted position.

if your child asks what a boy is or what a girl is are you going to be honest and say you don't know? Or are you going to say it's a certain femaley feeling that you can't describe but it's whatever you want to be, and anyone who says they are a girl is one because the definition of being a girl is saying you are a girl

Gosh I don’t know. She hasn’t asked me this yet; at the moment she seems to be quite cLear that she is able to recognise what a boy is and what a girl is (not linked to genitals which she doesn’t discuss). On the other hand she is clearly still exploring all the meanings/ implications of being a girl ; eg the mummy example.
If she ever did ask me this, I would consider it to be a very sophisticated question and I suppose I would probably try to explain some of the things I have tried to explain on this thread!

Those posters who believe in gender would you affirm to the point of surgery for a child?

@tandora?

You don't know what you'd say if your child asked you what a boy is or what a girl is? Wow.

Would you consider an explanation based entirely on sexed bodies to be wrong and misleading for children?

i think your post is helpful in many ways, and I agree with some of it. I wasn’t sure what you mean by this;

Obviously this development is based on knowing they are male or female; we tell them they are a boy or girl as observed at birth. But the internal feelings are based on social experience.

what do you mean the “internal feelings are based on social experience”?

you say that it is “obvious” what “ this development” (development of gender identity) is based on. But this is precisely what is not obvious and is difficult to explain. Some children will develop “internal feelings” that do not correspond with “what we tell them” based on observations at birth. How do we explain this?

She might not discuss it but it is linked to genitals. You pur her in dresses because of her genitals. Other parents usually align such signals with their kids privates. Or are you telling me that her idea of who is a girl and who is a boy is random and not linked to their actual sex?

If she ever did ask me this, I would consider it to be a very sophisticated question and I suppose I would probably try to explain some of the things I have tried to explain on this thread!

I’m not being rude but your explanations on the thread have not been understood by most other posters, who are (I assume) educated adults with considerable life experience. There is no hope of your explanations being understood by a child.

Do I think we should perform genital surgery on children? No.

Tandora, in terms of socialisation into a trans identity there are multiple examples of massively homiphobic parents feeling much happier to have a straight 'girl' rather than a gay boy. Have a look at what the mermaids CEO and her OH did to their child. It's horrific and IMHO should be considered abusive.

What about cross-sex hormones or puberty blockers?

Would you consider an explanation based entirely on sexed bodies to be wrong and misleading for children

No. But I would probably say “most girls have bodies like x,y,z” but all bodies are different.
I would also probably try to explain that being a girl isn’t just about our body, but about lots of other things as well.

I actually find the idea that all women somehow feel the same pretty abhorrent and regressive. That's the sort of rhetoric on which our oppression is based. What if their are as many ways to feel like a woman as there are women? wouldn't that mean that there is no 'feeling like a woman'?

what other things?

Being a girl is entirely about bodies. Everything else is personality. Unless you're going to tell me that there are ways that all girls think or behave.

Yes I think trans children should have access to puberty blockers, with appropriate assessment and consent procedures in place . I also think they should be allowed access to cross sex hormones , to undergo pubertal changes at a typical biologically/ developmentally appropriate age.

I'd say they're wrong and probably have been raised by people who have very rigid, old fashioned ideas about gender roles and presentation (or otherwise exposed to those damaging ideologies).

If your child decided to have genital surgery when older, so a young adult, would you feel ok with that?

Do the side effects not bother you? dieing young and disability from very early osteoporosis seem awful to me. What if there was another way to help these children feel comfortable in themselves?

Ok this is your belief , but it’s not the case. It’s doing a massive disservice to parents of trans children, most of whom are normal people with normal ideas about gender and sexuality,

there are very very few parents who would deliberately try to raise their child trans. There may be some who have a narcissistic personality disorder or munchhaussen or something.