Are mumsneters TERFs

[ChedderGorgeous]

I started a thread on the new taskmaster line up here. This greatly angered a taskmaster fb group who screenshot the conversation and agreed all mumsnetters were TERFs. AIBU to suggest this isn't the general perception of others when you have mentioned mumsnet ? Ps. I still haven't heard of John Robins !

Me too.

@Tandora

Trans people exist independently of my belief that they exist , or your apparent disbelief that they exist

And please don't make hyperbolic statements like this. I've been very clear that gender incongruence exists and people are affected by it.

" I didn’t really fixate too much on emphasising to her that she was a girl"

Do you think that posters here would? Usually it's people who are keen to uphold traditional gender stereotypes that emphasise the sex of their children.

To me, it is a simple neutral fact like their eye or hair colour, when they are small. To be mentioned as and when they ask questions that relate to their bodies. As they get older and are able to understand more about the world, then concepts around stereotyped gender roles and the harms they cause can be raised.

So do you have a daughter Tandora and at what point did you know? what does female mean?

Not at all, I was simply describing how it was with my DD.
i take the same approach as you. But my dd hasn’t really had questions about genitals (or her body in general) in relation to gender yet. I’m not sure how much she even knows about female and male private parts and how they relate to gender. I’m assuming this will come later and I think this is normal and appropriate.
When she talks about her vulva it is to do with toileting .

When she talks about being a girl or a boy it is entirely focused on things related to gender expression or social roles. eg the other day when she said “I’m a girl so I will grow up to be a mummy”.

I’m just saying that this guy is a very very small minority in the scheme of men who abuse so I just feel that the concentration on this topic within feminism atm is disproportionate to the threat

You may change your mind, if you have a browse of this:

https://transcrimeuk.com/

https://transcrimeuk.com/2023-convictions/

when my son consistently wanted to wear a tutu and heels from the dressing up box, was he my daughter? why do you think so many more vulva peole (not like sure if this is the best term but you've said that word female describes both sees so not sure what is left) take on the social roles of woman, carer, abused? is it because of their gender identity? why do I have those roles if I don't identity as a woman?

"But my dd hasn’t really had questions about genitals (or her body in general) in relation to gender yet."

What do you mean here? Do you mean, asking questions about her body in relation to her sex? Or do you mean in relation to gender identity when you say gender? It is unclear what definitions you use, when you interchange terms without defining any of them.

Actually I am uncomfortable discussing a specific child in this way, perhaps we could widen it out to children in general.

If she had said at around four to five that she was a boy would you have said yes you are?

no that's biology. you can't be a mummy unless you're one of the people with vulvas. in all seriousness, is there another word you'd use to describe people on the large gamete producing pathway because you're giving away of the term female to include males who don't want to be male means I have to use a term which describes genitalia and that makes me uncomfortable. Please tell me what the alternative is.

I use Gender incongruence to describe when someone feels discomfort with their sexed body

People may experience discomfort with their body, including the sexed part, for a range of reasons - perhaps they have a physical or health issue etc. Gender incongruence describes a particular type of “discomfort”, it is the pain caused by having an understanding of one’s sex (gender identity) that does not “correspond” to their sexed body parts (physical /
biological/ birth sex) : eg when a child understands themselves to be female, but has male body parts.

I mean she doesn’t ask me, “am I a girl because I have a vulva?”, or “do girls have vulvas?” Or “do boys have vulvas?”, or “what body parts do boys have”. She’s never linked being a girl with having a vulva. The only aspect of the body she had so far linked to her gender identity is her hair.

dyou've still not defined male and female. didn't you say a person with a penis csn be female? so what even are male body parts?

You linked it for her when you called her a girl because of her chromosomes and body. This is really disingenuous.

@Tandora if your child asks what a boy is or what a girl is are you going to be honest and say you don't know? Or are you going to say it's a certain femaley feeling that you can't describe but it's whatever you want to be, and anyone who says they are a girl is one because the definition of being a girl is saying you are a girl?

I don't care what anyone believes. It's the fact they're not honest about it that pisses me off.

I know you've been ignoring my questions. They are fairly basic. I don't take it personally.
I am just curious myself so if something doesn't make sense to me I try and unpick it, for my own satisfaction. That led me to the conclusion I was unkind by believing the only definition of woman is female. But I accept that I will be perceived as unkind by some. As a people-pleaser, that is tough but I'm over it, and I won't go out of my way to be impolite to anyone. I just can't make myself believe that the thing that every woman has in common is some personality trait.

That's why I've been genuine with my questions, because I really want to see the thread of logic behind the belief that female is a kind of feeling.

Unfortunately it all points to cultural stereotypes. Fine, they exist, if you think it's easier to join them then beat them (e.g. by IDing as a woman rather than struggling as a feminine man) then you do you, but be honest about it.

We've seen what happens as a society when dishonesty is allowed to take hold.

honestly, I don’t know why you are bothering to reply to me, as you are clearly not reading my posts and you clearly have no interest in understanding what I am saying.

This is different to other posters like @fedupandstuck who do not agree with me but who are reading my posts and engaging with what I actually write.

Of course being a mummy is related
to biology and being a girl. But my DD said “I will grow up to be a mummy because I am a girl”. I knew what she meant but i also wondered how to explain to her that being a girl does not mean she will grow up to be a mummy (lots of girls will not grow up to be mummies)

Thread is coming to an end so I'm out.

I am so surprised that it's gone exactly the way it always does

Why do feminists say that a sign on a toilet door will stop rape
Why do feminists use 'female' to mean body parts when it means many many other things like......... I've got to go now
People who believe sex sometimes matters are bigots and discriminate on others' beliefs
It's perfectly understandable that male people want to become women not men because the difference between men and women is .... I've got to go now
Your gender is your sex but your sex isn't your gender

Have we managed to escape "but feminists have toilets at home that all genders use, so that proves they're wrong about sex mattering at all ever"? That's demonstrable progress I guess!

Of course being a mummy is related to biology and being a girl.

And in many ways, of course, it isn't as well. Because being a girl both is exclusively a female thing and not at all a female thing.

Of course being a mummy is relate dto biology and being a girl. But my DD said “I will grow up to be a mummy because I am a girl”. I knew what she meant but i also wondered how to explain to her that being a girl does not mean she will grow up to be a mummy (lots of girls will not grow up to be mummies)

Yes, lots of women are infertile. The point?

The thing is that female infertility is as much a female experience as pregnancy and birth is.

That's a really arrogant response. Your posts are inconsistent and unclear. I am reading them but you're refusing to respond tonrequests for clarity. I'm afraid I am too long in the tooth for petty 'you're meaner than the others' jibes to bother me. So stop why wasting your time and instead engage properly. In your world view, female is a state of mind and a man can be a woman. So why do you think that biology matters foe being a mummy? why, also did you make this about gender identity rather than reproductive choice?

...the pain caused by having an understanding of one’s sex (gender identity) that does not “correspond” to their sexed body parts...

That's not understanding, it's the exact opposite. If a boy convinces himself that he's actually a girl, despite the physical evidence indicating that he's a boy, then it's a belief, not an understanding.

Even though his distress may be entirely real.

I’d like to know what an adult who believes in gender would say to a young child who believes they are a girl when they are a boy

Do they just say yes you are?

@Tandora, I’m struggling to understand what you mean when you talk about a child’s ’understanding’ of themselves as male or female. Understanding relates to knowledge. Once a child knows that males and females exist and have different bodies, that child can then know what sex they are. If they ‘understand’ themselves as male when they actually have a female body then their understanding is wrong. If a child insisted that they had brown eyes when they had blue eyes, most parents would find this curious and wonder whether the child was colour-blind or whether they were simply expressing what they wish was true.

How can a person ‘understand’ themself to be something which they absolutely, categorically are not? They might believe or wish they were the other sex but neither belief nor wish is the same thing as ‘understanding’.

And yes, of course she doesn't have to have a child, if she decides she would rather not. It doesn't change her sex.