Are mumsneters TERFs

[ChedderGorgeous]

I started a thread on the new taskmaster line up here. This greatly angered a taskmaster fb group who screenshot the conversation and agreed all mumsnetters were TERFs. AIBU to suggest this isn't the general perception of others when you have mentioned mumsnet ? Ps. I still haven't heard of John Robins !

So what you are saying is

' Women! Men are going to rape you anyway! Stop trying to make it harder for them.'

Every sexual assault that happens because of the removal of sex segregated spaces, is an assault that would not have happened to that woman if sex segregates spaces had remained. Feminist should argue against social changes that make women less safe.

A male rapist/ sex offender isn’t going to be deterred by a sign on a toilet door.

Social pressures and the law do work to some degree. I have certainly seen, in the past, a man escorted out of the women's toilets by a security guard. I don't think that would happen now.

Plus the situation in women's prisons, refuges, rape counselling services. It was not the case that men could 'identify in' to these spaces previously. They were kept out.

I must say, I struggle to understand your thinking, given that you work with vulnerable women. Aren't you extremely alarmed at a change that will make them even more vulnerable to attack than they are now? And who gains from this, while vulnerable women lose big time?

A male rapist/ sex offender isn’t going to be deterred by a sign on a toilet door. There are no police outside ensuring that everyone goes into their prescribed spaces so I just feel like there is SO much discourse about this.

No-one has said they would be.

There is a social contract where, to have a quick and fairly easy way of reducing risk - not removing it altogether, but reducing it, I know that's a tricky concept - we have separate spaces for males and females. Anyone going into the wrong space would be obvious, and would be questioned or would be asked to leave. It would break the social contract.

Now we have people arguing for the removal of this contract - do NOT ask anyone to leave spaces where women might be vulnerable or in a state of undress - because you don't know whether they feel feminine inside.

We therefore no longer have the risk reduction offered by single-sex spaces, because all spaces are mixed.

When Sarah Summers asked for a female-only session at the Rape Crisis Centre- in addition to, not instead of, ones that were for males and/or mixed sex - she was told to get lost.
This is what the loss of single-sex spaces has resulted in.

And this:
There are no police outside ensuring that everyone goes into their prescribed spaces
assumes that trans people are dishonest. Why would we need to police a social contract? Why not go into spaces for one's own sex?

A male rapist/ sex offender isn’t going to be deterred by a sign on a toilet door. There are no police outside ensuring that everyone goes into their prescribed spaces so I just feel like there is SO much discourse about this.

Burglars will burgle your house if they want to, doesn't stop people locking them, having ring doorbells and alarms etc.

You are completely missing the point. If I walk into a toilet and a man is there, I immediately think 'you shouldn't be here' and my senses are up. By allowing anyone to identify as a woman clearly by saying so, I don't have that right.

And you say you work in safeguarding? Christ almighty.

@tandora all children are recognising is their sex, and that it is fixed. If a male child thinks they are female, we can correct them on that factual error. If they think they can change sex, we can correct that factual error. An understanding of gendered roles, expectations and stereotypes develops obviously as children age. None of this is "gender identity".

I find the 'aren't there more important things to worry about' position to be prevalent among people who KNOW this is wrong, but have somehow internalised that they shouldn't say anything.

I think people should scrutinise this conflict. Why/how has it come about? Why are we not just trusting our conscience?

So the data we have now on how significant the threat is is the dangerous data right?

How relevant is it how few times (to your mind) there have been probable incidents of males in female spaces leading to assaults/attack/injury/inappropriate behaviours? What number of women being used as collateral damage to ‘be kind’ to the overall TW community is enough before it becomes a recognised problem? Seriously, I’d like a number, because to me just one is enough.

A male rapist/ sex offender isn’t going to be deterred by a sign on a toilet door.

Ah the Swiss cheese safeguarding argument again. Yes a sign is a deterrent. Let me put it another way to you. Say you’re visiting a hospital (as a random example) and you see a door with a sign that says ‘Only Authorised Personnel To Enter’. That would deter most people from entering, even if they had ill intent. There may be nothing of interest behind that door as much as your curiosity is piqued. But if the sign said ‘Authorised Personnel and Anyone Who Feels Like They’re Authorised To Enter’, it puts holes into the prerequisite to enter that room. The boundaries have been lifted to the point that it is inarguable as to whom has the right to enter that place, so even if authorised people do have an issue with it, the instructions are so vague how can they push back against it?

Obviously not saying this. I’m saying that rape is a massive threat to women and as a whole, what are the conditions that women tend to be raped in? As feminists should we not be putting a more of a focus on the home, on the grooming of young girls etc

ie: the conditions that tend to lead to the abuse of women

Yes, this. It's a deflection. Why the need to deflect, @Bex5490?

The difference is that everyone knows that non trans men enter nightclub bathrooms and rape women. That isn't news to people. The majority of the population know it's happening and that it's wrong.

Whereas huge numbers of people are only just finding out about transwomen in women's prisons, in sport etc and what that means for women. That's why it's such a huge topic at the moment, because new people are finding out just how much of an issue it is all the time and starting conversations like this one.

And the trans issue affects the other issues too. Until the last 10 years, if a man tried entering a women's toilet in a nightclub, upon being spotted they'd have been hoiked out of there, ejected from the club (and probably been given a kicking) by the bouncers and potentially been arrested. Obviously it's not 100% effective, but there's a social contract in place that stated that a man trying to enter a women's single sex space will be treated with suspicion and hostility.

That social contract is now gone. Is that man actually a trans woman? They've likely still got a penis, but that means nothing now. Hell even a beard isn't a reliable indicator. If I call this bloke out then am I going to be fired from my job?

It holds true for all areas of feminism. Women not getting recognised in the workplace, well now we've got men on all women shortlists, women's categories of awards being removed.

It's insidious, it's not a small issue, and it affects every area where being a woman is already shit.

Constant whataboutery.

I am definitely not saying that I don’t agree with the thinking.

What I’m saying is that it feels to me like pressure on law makers to do things about single sex spaces is far stronger than to do things about the other things I’ve mentioned.

I wish that there was as louder voice on subjects to do with violence against women that I see as more threatening. That’s all.

A male rapist/ sex offender isn’t going to be deterred by a sign on a toilet door

I am really starting to lose my patience with this self- serving and dishonest argument. It is blinding obvious that sex segregated spaces do work as a deterrent. It should not surprise you to learn that most sex offenders don't want to announce to the world that they are about to commit a sexual assault. Entering a female only space as a man, in spaces that society upholds as sex segregated spaces, marks you out as a man with malign intent. So yes, you are likely to be challenged ( and assaults have been stopped due to this challenge) , and any woman in there knows instantly to defend herself/ escape you,. Of course it makes a difference from a society where people are too scared to challenge males entering these spaces and where woman are too scared of social approbation to keep themselves safe from males entering these spaces.

Plus some men offend by being flashers/ voyeurs and getting off on female discomfort. These men can no longer be challenged if men are allowed in these spaces.

It’s not about deflection - in a struggle I think it’s important to prioritise. We disagree on what that should be. It’s as simple as that.

This is absolutely not gender identity

yes this is absolutely what “gender identity” is.
This is what I am trying to explain.
It is simply an understanding of self as a boy/male or a girl/female.

what you are struggling to understand is that some children will develop an understanding of self as female, and yet they will have been born with male body parts. This is what is so counter intuitive for you and so many others, but it is an empirical fact.

I think a core condition is men treating women as a commodity. Which is what happens when they demand we share our spaces with them because they believe they understand how we feel and have decided they feel the same. They are using women to validate their identity.

What I’m saying is that it feels to me like pressure on law makers to do things about single sex spaces is far stronger than to do things about the other things I’ve mentioned

So we should stand back and knowingly allow more women to be assaulted by allowing this social change because we are too busy already?

That makes no sense.

And the diminution of the status of women, and the erosion of the importance of our safeguarding, and the erosion of our rights to boundaries, and the absorption of this message, especially by girls and younger women, really hampers our ability to make improvements for women in any of these other areas.

It's a lot harder to fix things that are broken than it is to maintain something that works.

There are groups of people right now actively trying to dismantle women's rights. Trying to stop that happening is proving to be a massive struggle, but its a million times easier than it will be if we do nothing now, and try to get back what's been lost later.

You can correct the “factual error” as you see it. But that won’t necessarily change that child’s understanding, it may just cause them profound distress,

@Bex5490

Going on today is an employment tribunal at Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, controversially run by a particularly nasty male TRA misogynist.

In 2016 the same centre published a moving account by a woman documenting her experience of the aftermath of rape. It's still on their website. She clearly expressed that she would prefer female support after being raped.

Mridul Wadhwa, the TRA who is now CEO of that rape crisis centre, left the Scottish National Party because MW was incensed due to most of the other members of the SNP voting for women to be able to choose to have a forensic examination by a member of the female sex, rather than "woman gender". MW does not care about women, even the vulnerable service users who depend on the centre.

That is my "lived experience" of what trans rights activism means, as a feminist.

So yes, too right I'm a fucking terf, and anyone with any integrity is.

Ah yes, the same TRA CEO who said that women who wanted female support should 'reframe their trauma'.

Lovely 🙄.

It’s not about deflection - in a struggle I think it’s important to prioritise. We disagree on what that should be. It’s as simple as that.

That's fine. No one is expecting you to do anything. But step out of my way.

yes this is absolutely what “gender identity” is.
This is what I am trying to explain.
It is simply an understanding of self as a boy/male or a girl/female.

what you are struggling to understand is that some children will develop an understanding of self as female, and yet they will have been born with male body parts. This is what is so counter intuitive for you and so many others, but it is an empirical fact.

@Tandora you are using a linguistic sleight of hand here.

Understanding of self as male etc as discussed, comes from using your sight, touch etc to recognise that you have a male body.

'Understanding' in your second instance is something different. What? What is the 'female' if it is not the body? You must acknowledge by now that you simply don't know, right?

(I suspect you do know and it's down to 'feminine stereotypes', but you don't want to say).

You still don't seem to be able to think of one difference between a man and a woman.

You're conflating biological sex with what someone wishes or maybe what you'd call identity. It's a factual error if they say I don't have a penis (if they're a boy) or if they say we don't call people with penises men. It's a desire if they say I wish I could be called a woman even though I have a penis or I wish I didn't have a penis.