Are mumsneters TERFs

[ChedderGorgeous]

I started a thread on the new taskmaster line up here. This greatly angered a taskmaster fb group who screenshot the conversation and agreed all mumsnetters were TERFs. AIBU to suggest this isn't the general perception of others when you have mentioned mumsnet ? Ps. I still haven't heard of John Robins !

You can correct the “factual error” as you see it. But that won’t necessarily change that child’s understanding, it may just cause them profound distress,

I'm trying to understand - are you saying the child is hallucinating their body parts? I assume not, but just want to clarify because you keep talking about 'understanding' in the context of literally seeing their body parts.

If anyone lurking is interested in the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Tribunal, here's a link to the Mumsnet thread discussing the live tweeting.

Another GC employment tribunal. Roz Adams vs Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre #2 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4988632-another-gc-employment-tribunal-roz-adams-vs-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-2

Never heard of this term. I think most (sane) people agree that you can’t change your sex/gender, even if you’re presenting yourself as the other. Completely irrational to think otherwise.

Ah yes, the same TRA CEO who said that women who wanted female support should 'reframe their trauma'.

This peaked me.

Why was it not called out for the disgusting, callous gaslighting that it is?

No. I am talking about gender identity as promoted by gender ideology.

Their position is not that one merely 'feels' like one is a boy or girl/ man or woman. But that that feeling means that one actually IS a boy or girl or man or woman.

I, and I think most people, would be very happy to accept that some people feel incongruence with their sex and that they live their lives presenting as the sex that feel they are, to manage that incongruence. I am also happy with people living like that just for the sheer fun of it, if they want to, even if they do not have gender incongruence.

Where my line is, is saying such feelings or presentation means that someone actually IS a man or women or boy and girl and they must be treated as such in all and everyone circumstance.

No. Sex matters. We have limited sex segregated spaces for important reasons and those reasons remain. And because they remain, we need to retain those sex segregated spaces.

what you are struggling to understand is that some children will develop an understanding of self as female, and yet they will have been born with male body parts. This is what is so counter intuitive for you and so many others, but it is an empirical fact.
The way you have written this is not empirical fact, it is infused with your belief system. There is not a female who is born with male body parts. What has happened is some boys express feelings of gender incongruence. Most of these boys will find these feelings disappear as they go through puberty. Most of those will be gay.

Why was it not called out for the disgusting, callous gaslighting that it is?

Fear, virtue signalling and self interest.

Understanding of self as male etc as discussed, comes from using your sight, touch etc to recognise that you have a male body.

but this just isn’t the case. There are some people who have an understanding of self as male, that does not come from recognising they have a male body, through sight and touch.

i get this is hard for you to imagine and understand, but it is a fact. People can touch and recognise their body has a penis, and yet they understand themself to be female. You may not accept this, but it is what it is.

Incidentally children are able to see and touch their body parts long before they have developed gender constancy. Children can see and touch body parts from birth (or even I suppose in the womb!). They can recognise and label body parts typically by 18 months. My daughter knew she had a vulva and could label it long before she had developed an understanding of self as female/ a girl.

I’m finding the gender heavy posts very ideology rather than fact driven and think this articulates the issues well

No , I’m saying that they are seeing accurately their body parts, but that this seeing of their body parts does not define their understanding of self as male or female.

I’m finding the gender heavy posts very ideology rather than fact driven and think this articulates the issues well

It does. It's just waffle and speculation.

People can touch and recognise their body has a penis, and yet they understand themself to be female. You may not accept this, but it is what it is.

You keep saying it's about "accepting" this. I literally do not understand, when you say 'female', what that is if not a female body. And you repeatedly refuse to say.

What is 'self as male'? What would be one -ONE - criteria of knowing that your self is male?

You keep repeating these things that you don't know what they mean yet expect everyone to 'accept' it.

I would implore you to think about the questions you very obviously haven't been able to answer and think about why. Even if you don't respond on here, think about why you think 'woman' doesn't have a meaning.

Why are there no differences between men and women?
Why are there 'many ways' to be one yet you can't name one?
Why is 'being a man' both restricted to one sex yet simultaneously can be either sex?

So it's a factual error because male means male bodied and if you have a penis you're male bodied. It doesn't define them as a person but that's not relevant to whether you're male or not.

Yes, using 'male' / 'female' but meaning something different is not actually that helpful to the discussion. Please could you use words that describe what you mean, rather than different ones?

@Tandora how do you know you have/had a daughter.... until your child is old enough to articulate or indicate their gender identity, how can you possibly know?

To address your points, I would be correcting their understanding of their sex, nothing to do with any gender identity issues. If knowledge of their sex distressed them continually then I would address that issue, of course. But not by agreeing with their factual error.

The way you have written this is not empirical fact, it is infused with your belief system.

it is an empirical fact that some children will have male body parts but understand themselves to be female. This is what being trans is. This has nothing to do with my “belief system”. Trans people exist independently of my belief that they exist , or your apparent disbelief that they exist.

There is not a female who is born with male body parts.

What I said is that there are some children born with male body parts who understand themselves to be female. Whether you (or I) understand a child to be female is separate to whether that child understands themself to be female. You may insist that these understandings are aligned. Sometimes they are not.

What has happened is some boys express feelings of gender incongruence.

What is your understanding of gender incongruence?

If you say that you "understand yourself to be female" when you are male you are either (a) psychotic; (b) misunderstanding the meaning of the word female; or (c) lying. No other possibilities.

I have sympathy for the psychotic, and would like to explain a definition to those who have misunderstood. The rest can fuck right off, we know what you are doing.

it is an empirical fact that some children will have male body parts but understand themselves to be female. This is what being trans is.

No. It's where gender doesn't match sex.
Female is a sex, not a gender.

Which genders match which sexes and why?

What I said is that there are some children born with male body parts who understand themselves to be female

No, they think they are. This is not in a vacuum when a lot of people are telling them this is a thing which is possible. When it isn't.

Not just possible, desirable.

Female is just biology. If a child with a heart condition believed themselves to not have a heart condition, this would be the same and would need correcting.

Unless you mean something else by female in which case please state your definiti9n because otherwise nothing you're saying makes sense.

"it is an empirical fact that some children will have male body parts but understand themselves to be female."

This is linguistic sleight of hand again. What you are saying is that there are some children who are male who are female. That is clearly logically incorrect.

If you disagree, then what does "understand themselves to be female" mean?

Firstly a child is heavily influenced by the adults around them. If you have TRAs in schools or affirming to a male child they can be female that will be a major factor.

Secondly we do not need to base laws on this anymore than we do body dysmorphia or an eating disorder. We don’t enable as we do for gender dysphoria, we treat.

Also if people want to look anyway they want they can, the male sex class can expand to include that ‘incongruence’ as it’s currently called. And just be a sex class that allows for a whole range of expression.

Obviously you can post as you do as the law is allowing female certificates and we’ve see extremities of that folly - with intimate searches not limited by sex and males pretty much able to say they are female without change in any way

Now more women can see the law has taken the wrong approach, hence the push back you’re seeing

We are in this overall equation as we share the spaces, so our lack of consent and a no does count

Genderists will just seek to tie you up in waffly nonsensical nothing.

The reason you are arguing this is because your belief system is not allowing you to have a definition of male or female. Both these terms relate to sex. As does boy and girl. I will continue to use coherent, evidence based terms that withstand scrutiny. So I repeat, some boys express feelings gender incongruence ( or perhaps, some say things that cause the adults around them to think they have feelings of gender incongruence).

I use Gender incongruence to describe when someone feels discomfort with their sexed body.

Feeling discomfort does not mean you ARE a different sex.

how do you know you have/had a daughter.... until your child is old enough to articulate or indicate their gender identity, how can you possibly know?

well it depends what you mean by daughter doesn’t it? I knew that my DD had xx chromosomes since I was about 10 weeks preg as I had a harmony text. At my 20 week scan, and at birth I could tell she had typical female genitalia. She was able to see and touch this genitalia, and I taught her the words we use to describe these body parts. She would
talk about her Vulva long before she was able to consistently label herself “a girl”.
I didn’t really fixate too much on emphasising to my DD that she was a girl, but of course I and others would sometimes say things to her that communicated this (eg my mum would tell her she was a “good girl”). We used female pronouns and gave her a female name. I dressed her in a range of clothes, sometimes trousers,
sometimes dresses, etc.
over time my DD learned to recognise and categorise people as boys/ girls, men/woman. Over time it became increasingly important to her to apply this categorisation to herself (this was the development of gender identity/
constancy) and it started around 3.5-4. She started to talk about herself being a girl. She attached positive labels to being a girl and stated her preference for being a girl . She is still learning all of the implications of being a girl, as she is still little. she’s not really interested in talking about genitals in relation to boys and girls, but she is very interested in social roles. For example, the other day she said to me that she would “grow up to be a
mummy” because she was a girl. I knew what she meant, but also wondered how to explain to her that not all girls grow up to be mummies.

My DD’s gender identity development has been entirely typical, as I predicted based on her biological sex. I knew it was possible she would be trans (develop an understanding of self as male, even though she has female chromosomes and genitalia) because I know from mine and others research that some children are trans. However, I did not think this was likely , as I know it is very rare. So I started with the assumption that she would develop in a gender typical way and she did.