Overheard in the office, what men really think

[josephinebonaparted]

A post from earlier thread got me thinking - the poster said she overheard men in the office saying that they DO hear the baby crying, but are only pretending to be asleep, even the ‘nice’ men. Another one from a few days ago was a poster being shocked at the things a group of ‘nice’ men where saying in a pub once their wives left.

It reminded me of when I was younger (and a lot less wise), I saw men in their 40/50s flirting with female clients at work (client facing role) and taking them out for cocktails and dinners, and literally stepping out of the bar to tell their wives that they were busy at work and can’t come home for bedtime. I was gobsmacked - one of them had a 2 week old baby!

Is this normal? If you work in a male dominated environment, is it really the case that guys don’t respect their partners like this?

Is it?

Has a woman ever touched you in a way you didn't want and you were scared (because the threat of harm was there) to say no?

Because I have been touched by men like that.

But never by women.

I'm very cool with saying no, fuck off. But there's a risk with men that there isn't with women. And I've never been in a situation with women that felt dangerous.

Well OP is talking about things that get overhead that men are saying. So its about talking and words they use. So that's what my comment was addressing. Women say equally awful things too

It's not equally awful, not really in the same ball park, I watched some of the andrew tate documentary last night, it was sickening

Men have been told to butt out for years and years. Do other women ever step in and help you in these scenarios?

I work in a very male dominated workplace, think trades men and their managers etc. The way some of these men speak about their partners is quite shocking. There are a few really lovely guys who have nothing but nice things to say about their wives and girlfriends, but some are disgusting, such as having a wife and 3 kids but working late because 'its not like I have anything to go home for'. But on the other hand, although much less likely to hear, there are still some nasty women in my workplace who do the same about their partners.

I once worked in HR in a male dominated company.

The stories we came across were awful, multiple and persistent affairs, exchanging promotion for sex, deliberately getting younger female staff blind drunk, sexual assaults, harassment, openly offensive and derogatory comments, sleeping with clients.

Surprisingly it was often the ones you’d not expect, the ‘nice guys’ who took walking holidays and wore washable M&S suits and posted comments about supporting international women’s day and their amazing daughters.

The obvious sleazy guys you could keep out of the way of, but that nice chap who wanted to take you out for a drink to celebrate a project success and then sexually assaulted you, that was a real mind bender.

Have they?

And yes, the women in these 'scenarios' generally have a chat with me and other women until we reach our destination and are very thankful that some fucker stepped in and made the situation visible.

Correct

When I was in my 20s I was mates with my 40 year old boss. He used to come in early, dick about on football websites most of the day then about 4pm, put his head down and stay til 6.30pm/7pm after most of us were long gone. MD thought he was great.

I asked him why he stayed late, when there was no real need - everyone else was out the door at 5pm…
Well, he said. Because he had 2 kids age 4 and 6 so he left early to avoid having to do the nursery/school runs - his wife, a TEACHER did that- and if he timed it right getting home he arrived after the kids were fed, bathed changed etc by his FT teacher wife, just in time for bed. And he magnanimously would do stories while she got dinner ready.
His DW basically thought his job demanded he be there 8am- 6/7pm. When the reality was NONE of us really needed to be there outside of 9-5pm. The owner was ALL about work/life balance and flexibility for working parents in particular.

Opened my eyes. The worst thing was, he had a football season ticket - for him and a kid, and alternated taking one of his kids with him to home games so everyone in the office thought he was father of the year!

Long story short - I married a woman! And Steve, if you’re reading this, I’m glad she finally came to her senses and divorced you!

These men sound like arseholes when they're talking to other men, and like decent people when talking to women.

How can you tell that the "lad" persona is their true self and the nice guy a pretence? It seems likely that a fair few of them are genuinely okay, and just pretending to seem somehow "cool" Infront of people they think will expect that.

Still a problem indicating a toxic masculine culture, but a slightly different problem.

I don’t think “most” men are like this, but I do think the ones that are tend to be very dominant, and the “decent” ones don’t stand up to them. So as soon as you have two or three of them in any setting they will appear to be the majority.

I think this is true. You get a handful of bad ones surrounded by a whole flock of sheep. The sheep make up a lot of the nice guys as we percieve them, because they're people pleasers who when they're with women act in the way women want them to, and when with men act in the way the dominant men expect. Basically this cohort probably don't much care one way or another how women are spoken of, they bend with the wind as its not important enough to them to take a stand.

One of my male colleagues called out another guy for joking about not helping his wife with their baby.

My colleagues are mostly pretty respectful about their wives/partners and seem to be pretty hands on with kids too. Lots of proud dads (and mums) asking for time out in December to watch their kids in nativity plays etc.

I always make sure i offer the guys in my team as much flexibility as the women where families are concerned.

Unfortunately when kids come along women put far more effort into being good mums and hardly any into being good wives/GFs. Men then bored and seek their kicks elsewhere. Simples.

Er... stepping in when another man is actually harming/threatening a woman is not "white knighting"

Calling another man out for his misogyny/sexism/rapey behaviour is not "white knighting"

It's being a decent human being

I think you need to look up the actual definition of terms before you throw them about randomly.

Is that statement/opinion wholly true or partially true?
Or is it only true on Mumsnet threads specifically bemoaning men?

When women are committing 50% of violent crime and 50% of sexual offending and earn the same as men and do 50% of child care and housework population-wide, you will have a point. Until then, you don't.

Men commit 95% of violent crimes and 98% of sexual offending. They outearn women and do less housework and less for their children.

Women "moaning about their husbands" are usually discussing the injustices I've described. To denigrate this discussion as "moaning" is itself a form of misogyny.

So she should neglect their children in order to spend time pleasing his cock? It never occurs to you to ask why he isn't stepping up to look after the children that he fathered?

This, right here, is what we call misogyny.

I'm a male survivor of fairly serious domestic violence (I've talked about it on here before, see my previous posts) inflicted on me by a woman.

Do you want to tell me that the risk isn't there?

The only vile creatures are those that perpetuate the calling of any gender or group of people as a whole 'vile' or similar.
Just food for thought!

I refer you back to "you can't know what a man is actually thinking, so the safest assumption for your own safety is to assume that he would be like this under at least some circumstances". I treat all men as potential rapists, batterers, and misogynists, because I cannot see inside their heads so for all I know, any one of them could be.

Before anyone screams "misandry", women are all actually taught to do this. "Meet in a public place", "don't take a lift from him", "don't leave your drink unattended" advice that is peddled as "common sense" is all rooted in the knowledge that any man could be a bad'un and you have no way of knowing. When a woman doesn't treat all men as potential rapists and a man chooses to harm her, she gets blamed because she didn't follow the advice that we are all taught.

Either we are man-hating bra burning misandrist feminazis, or we are stupid naive airheads who are asking to be raped. Under patriarchy, women cannot win.

4 of my male colleagues cheat with prostitutes whenever they go overseas for work. They book "the brass" when they book the hotels.
All of them are either married with kids under 3 or in a LTR with kids.
Apparently "brasses" aren't cheating.

The risk women pose to others is far lower than the risk that men pose to others. This is not a claim than women pose no risk and does not negate the harm that a woman has done to you.

It is far more likely that a woman of a given age has never been sexually assaulted by another woman than that she has never been sexually assaulted by a man. I was eight when I was sexually assaulted by two boys. I have been sexually assaulted on several occasions since then. I am now in my forties and have yet to be sexually assaulted even once by a woman.

STIs would beg to differ.

"men will carry on acting like twats until the vast majority of women reject them for it"

This.

Possibly it might be until all women reject them though. The 'bad boy' trope is very strong - so many times I've heard "I know he's a bad boy but it's only/just..." with a squirm and giggle.

Whilst the bad boys get a shag why would they change?