Overheard in the office, what men really think

[josephinebonaparted]

A post from earlier thread got me thinking - the poster said she overheard men in the office saying that they DO hear the baby crying, but are only pretending to be asleep, even the ‘nice’ men. Another one from a few days ago was a poster being shocked at the things a group of ‘nice’ men where saying in a pub once their wives left.

It reminded me of when I was younger (and a lot less wise), I saw men in their 40/50s flirting with female clients at work (client facing role) and taking them out for cocktails and dinners, and literally stepping out of the bar to tell their wives that they were busy at work and can’t come home for bedtime. I was gobsmacked - one of them had a 2 week old baby!

Is this normal? If you work in a male dominated environment, is it really the case that guys don’t respect their partners like this?

I used to run international conferences and, yes, I'd say the playing away rate was between 50% and 75%. They get drunk, egg each other on, pick up a girl....

Depressing.

When I used to work late in the office I was usually the only woman there. The men would stand about chatting till around 7 pm when they would go home safe in the knowledge the dinner would be cooked and the children ready if not already in bed. It was blatant.

When I was in my early twenties I worked in an all male environment and almost all of them were trying it on with me.

The thing that shocked me the most was when one of them pressured his FWB (he had a few but was at least upfront with them about not being monogamous) into an abortion and the next day was in work laughing his head off and saying he couldn't wait to get out shagging. While gloating he was doing hip thrusts and sexual gestures to hammer the point home. He clearly was thrilled and not bothered that this girl was at home bleeding and crying. She hadn't really wanted the abortion from what I gathered.

She came into our workplace later that week and he was nice to her face but I couldn't believe what a disgusting human being he was.

When I worked for a household name insurance company, it was common knowledge that the married CEO in his 50s with 3 small boys was having a long standing affair with a 25 yr old Team Manager in the company. She was an ex-copper and drove around in a brand new BMW that was totally unaffordable for the other managers at her level.

The woman's best friend in the company was also having an affair with another married guy in the C-Suite management team. The fact that the whole company of hundreds of people knew all about it, while the wives, I assume, didn't, was depressing.

Lolz.

I guess I just don't give them my time.

They're not in my life.

I was bullied horribly at Catholic school, I didn't see them as bad women, more a product of their environment. I got why they were bullying me.

And I absolutely do see women who aren't living their best lives and are a bit dickish as a product of bad men.

SO! When we have equity, we can have the conversation again. But whilst we don't, I will never be down on women who are soaked in the patriarchy, and I will never take it personally.

I’m not commenting on their immature banter but I 100% believe that men are nowhere near as concerned or alarmed by a baby crying as us and have less innate urgency at the situation. There is probably a good biological basis for that

Surely, it's not dumping additional tasks on the wife, it's choosing to miss out on some key life events. My DD has long left home and has a very responsible job, she's always been amazed that her Mum and Dad both know what age she was in photos and when key milestones happened.
Lots of people bemoan society going down the drain because of fatherless children, it's such a shame when some of those dads - particularly more affluent ones - were living in the same house but absent.

Wut?

Think about that.

Biologically men and women must have the same urge to keep their children alive.

I can't say that I've really ever noticed this sort of behaviour - certainly not the banter. Although men do tend to hang around the office quite late while the women are generally rushing out to collect their kids from nursery/relieve the nanny etc. Until recently it was always that way round but maybe things have changed over the past few years, especially with covid.

As for having flings etc, I've not noticed that either except when I was in my 20s. What happened at an overseas conference, stayed at an overseas conference. That sort of thing. Maybe I don't see it now because I don't stay late at parties etc and am tucked up in bed before people start hooking up!

But definitely no banter of any kind - even back in the late 90s/early 00s there really wasn't any in the places I worked.

Biologically men and women must have the same urge to keep their children alive

I don't know actually. Maybe men don't care because they can impregnate a different woman every night; whereas a woman will take at least 9 months to grow a baby and then need a while before she can carry another healthy pregnancy.

There's a difference between can and do.

Men are absolutely not responsible for “sorting other men out”. Should normal adjusted males be going around in capes, chastising miscreant males? It’s got absolutely nothing to do with them. They are not the morality police and have their own lives and families to see to.

and is “white knighting” now in vogue again? For a few years this was supposedly bad.

Well I expect a lot of the women these men picked up were playing away too. They can't all have been single!
Two of my married female colleagues slept with other blokes at one conference I attended. These are just the ones I knew about.

They absolutely should.

I have had so many situations where I have spoken and 'saved' a woman where men have stood around because they're scared. Ok they're scared because if a bloke says NO, that can cause violence. I get why men 'don't want to get involved'.

I get it.

BUT, fucking hell, I've been in situations that I have dealt with and I have looked around for a bit of male involvement, and they always look away, they look around for another Man to deal with it.

And No Man Does. I always end up dealing with it myself.

That is shitty. It pisses me off Every Fucking Time.

DH and I never had children, but whenever we watch a drama with a couple in bed and a baby crying and the man waits for the wife to get up he berates the man.

Ok. Just let us know when white knighting goes out of fashion again and is seen as male entitlement.

It's unlikely where I work.

Most of the male senior leaders with primary aged kids have a mix of compressed hours, part time hours, relationships with women of the same seniority and actively take time off for sick children. We have a few single dads too.

They take shared parental leave and one Director took 6 months off as sole carer for the latter half of paternity leave.

They schedule in school runs and label school activities in their calendar and take time off for it. They are on the PTA.

These men don't go to the pub every week after work and they look to organise away days during working hours as they want to get home as much as we do. They talk about being tired from being up with the kids and changing sicky beds.

There arent WhatsApp groups bringing work and banter home.

By role modelling respectful behaviour, it encourages their middle management to do to the same as it's part of the culture.

Its astounding the difference that can be made to workplace culture when men take responsibility for their kids properly and show this at a senior level.

I'm sure I'll be shot down for this but I think a lot of them have senior level wives and wives that made clear that going back to work after maternity leave was important to them and set out an expectation of juggling childcare, not all of it falling to her. E.g. Director household probably couldn't afford 6 months off if wife wasnt back at work.

Not in my workplace. The senior men say things like "I can only stay for drinks and not dinner because I need to get home for bedtime" or "I'm off to do school pick up now". In my mid 20s before my own DC were born I found it a bit eye rolling, like they wanted a medal for doing normal parent things that women would do without announcement. But as soon as I had my own DC I really appreciated it and realised that they were doing great work in vocally normalising childcare commitments fitting around work, and in normalising men picking up the slack. In general the men I know at work talk about their wives as if they are equal partners.

@Doodar I think men willing to talk about it are generally immature and not worthy though.

Whilst any man might think something, only the pricks voice it.

I dont doubt there are arseholes masquerading as nice guys but if they are among genuinely nice men or in the right culture, they wont feel able to voice it, which creates a culture of change.

This, and IMO "yes". You can't know what a man is actually thinking because you aren't in his head, so the safest assumption for your own safety is to assume that he would be like this under at least some circumstances. If he's in a group with other men who are misogynist, he will probably join in to fit in even if he doesn't personally believe those things himself because most people will try to fit in sooner than challenge the group consensus, and will downplay his peers' comments as "jokes" to resolve the cognitive dissonance inherent in doing this. In doing this, he endorses the misogynists' behaviour.

My colleagues, all men are really good. Love their partners and kids, see their parents and siblings frequently too. I think I’m lucky to work with these guys. Women in other teams also talk fondly of them

There will always be people that behave badly and always have and probably always will, whatever their sex!! I have worked with odious creatures of both sexes and I'd not say men were worse, just too easy to target / label for this behaviour, as they are generally a little more verbal and visible with it!! I have (not always been popular for this) confronted this behaviour, as I found that one of the worst for flirting / affairs and abusing her DH's trust used me as an excuse and sorry, that's not something I condon or allow and she ended up lonely and on her own, as she played away one too many times! I knew her DH who was lovely and simply confronted her and cut off the friendship in the workplace as she had the morals of an alleycat, with her actively chasing anything and everything and sometimes making the men very uncomfortable with her behaviour, let alone the women. I've worked in sales environments, where the 'chaps' would try it on, but I made it clear that they I would not lie, cover for them and interestingly once you have this conversation out in the open neither do most of their other colleagues want to. Culture feeds this behaviour and it was generally the exception and I think that not confronting it allows it to continue. Same with derogatory language, you let that go, it continues and we all need to make it clear why it is not acceptable and shame those using it; you can start to change behaviours, or at least behaviours in your presence.

Cool.

Next time I'm in a situation where a young woman is being sexually abused (this has happened three times, in recent years, so I know of what I fucking speak), I won't step in. And it's always on trains, I'll do fuck all.

Because men don't. They see it, I see them seeing it, I see them looking at me as I do 'Something'. I see them waiting until I get thumped until they 'step in'.

I never do, and they never do.

Last time was a bloke about 6' 4", I got on a packed train, he was obviously beered up, and was 'bantering' with every woman in his vicinity. There was a very attractive young woman near him and he suggested very loudly that he'd like to come on her face. I got between them and told him that was not OK and he needed to leave her alone.

And I stood in front of him for the rest of the journey. And I could see all the blokes in the carriage looking, waiting.

They did fuck-all though. I had a very nice conversation with the young woman, and was called a 'Fucking Dirty Dyke' by the man in question as he left the train.

I obviously told him to 'fuck off, just fucking do one'.

Not. One. Man. Helped. Me.

Well is it any worse than what women do when they get together and moan about their husbands. Not all women just some.

I think women typically don't get to see male bad behaviour to its fullest extent. Most men are aware of what women will find acceptable and know how to conceal the unacceptable from women who's opinions matter to them.
If you've been a woman who doesnt matter to them, such as bar staff, the office cleaner, invisible woman on the train, you will often witness a great deal their wives, and female friends and colleagues wouldn't.
Also if you're a woman with men in your life who are open with you about their interactions with other men, you learn a great deal. My DS to whom I'm very close has repeated things to me said in all male groups that have I wouldn't have expected from the 'nice' men concerned.