Overheard in the office, what men really think

[josephinebonaparted]

A post from earlier thread got me thinking - the poster said she overheard men in the office saying that they DO hear the baby crying, but are only pretending to be asleep, even the ‘nice’ men. Another one from a few days ago was a poster being shocked at the things a group of ‘nice’ men where saying in a pub once their wives left.

It reminded me of when I was younger (and a lot less wise), I saw men in their 40/50s flirting with female clients at work (client facing role) and taking them out for cocktails and dinners, and literally stepping out of the bar to tell their wives that they were busy at work and can’t come home for bedtime. I was gobsmacked - one of them had a 2 week old baby!

Is this normal? If you work in a male dominated environment, is it really the case that guys don’t respect their partners like this?

I think this is what is at the heart of it

No. It’s a safe space where women actually have a voice in what is a world where they face massive inequality, misogyny, oppression and violence. It’s not poison. It’s not hate. It’s not unfounded. It is a collective experience of mistreatment we face daily and extremely common themes of sexism, domestic violence and coercion in society that is still a massive problem.

Yes, they are actually.

Has anyone picked you yet?

A former boss of mine said he'd known many male colleagues who admitted they often worked late, not because they had to but because they wanted to get home just late enough for the kids to be in bed.

I'm sure it isn't all men but it certainly isn't uncommon.

Observing this trait doesn't mean we hate men or think they're all terrible.

I work in the city in a very male dominated area, very technical so not macho at all, and have worked in the same area in very male dominated teams in different companies.

I have seen a lot of men pretend to work late to avoid the evening routine with their kids. Some openly say, others are quieter about it but still absolutely do it. In my experience almost all the senior guys do this to varying degrees.

I’ve overheard some “nice” men talk down about their wives ( who are SAHM).

in my friendship circle I have had a few men say how hard they find it to work and then come home to a stressful house without dinner on the table during their wives first mat leave and I have laughed in their faces. Now those men come home after the wife gets home from work funnily enough. I had one male friend loudly say how much harder his wife’s job was looking after their baby on her first mat leave but it was very clearly performative - I’ve been told that line by three friends passing it on as they were so impressed - doesn’t mean he is home though!

Having said all of this none of the fathers with young kids I work with look happy. They look a little lonely or a little sad or a little desperate or depressed.

In terms of cheating I’d be the last person anyone would tell in the office - but I would guess a quarter of the men from things I’ve heard or what I see.

There are good men out there but I do think there is a problem in our generation and it isn’t working for either the men or women.

I find it sad that women put up with it.

I remember years ago listening to a conversation with male colleagues talking about how they don’t give a you know what about work since they’ve had kids and just want to get home, family is more important etc etc.

I would say if all your brothers are like this you have a father problem.

Righto!

I've only ever worked in 'male environments', I started my professional life in the city in the 90s.

I then moved to the built environment in the 00's.

Then tech in the '10's.

I don't work for money now, but volunteer in a 'male space'.

I was brought up by parents (I'm one of five) that valued their children equally. I was never seen as lesser than my brothers and I was parented as much by my father as I was by my mother. From a child I never saw or was taught to see women as 'lesser'. I have been a SAHM but my relationship with my husband is entirely equitable.

I have never ever valued myself less than a man and I have only ever (with one notable exception) had relationships with men who relate to me as an equal.

I do think, that because I had a good father and very positive male role-models I was always able to tell dick-head men to fuck off, I never took any bollockry from men because I had a good Dad, and still do. I have a good husband two good brothers (and two sisters that also have solid relationships with their husbands). I also had a mother that was very interested in feminism and lived her own life.

I met up with some old school-friends recently and two of the blokes said to my husband (and it's not the first time he's heard this, but it was the first time he'd met these particular men), 'Good luck with Augustus/well done for taming Agustus'.

Thankfully he told them to fuck off before I did.

And that kind of shit does make me realise that there are a lot of dick-head blokes out there that don't really like women they just tolerate them because they're straight and want children. I've seen that so much throughout my life. I just don't tolerate men like that and I'm very lucky that I was brought up to do so. I'm very fucking lucky that I had a decent father and I see that.

I completely understand women who didn't have the advantage that I did. I don't blame women though, I blame men for bringing up shitty men and never teaching them to be better.

There is always one woman blamer 😂

And! Even with my lovely life I see shitty men all the time. But I have no time for them and I model this for my children, one boy, one girl.

They are individuals, not sexed animals.

Cogito, ergo sum is the base.

This!

It's a surprise we don't just drown every male child at birth!

I heard two new fathers in the office the other day comparing notes about their babies and the funny things they do, and I thought how nice it was they were obviously proud hands on fathers, interested in their kids' development.

there are just as many women who entertain themselves by saying disparaging things about men, slag their husbands off, talk about their sex life etc, so let's dispel the lazy myth that it's only the men, and all women are saintly, shall we.

Not all men are like that, not all women are like that.

Is it only a men thing? If women go along for dinner and cocktails and… with married men they are also not very nice people. I used to work in a place many years ago where the recently married girl had affairs with the cute boys from the office.

Don't be stupid.

If you cannot see that there is disadvantage for women and take it as an 'everyone be man-haters' vantage, you are digging your own grave.

Men are individuals. They have volition. If they choose to use that to lazy advantage and see woman as chore-doers then they deserve all the opprobrium that's coming down that line to them.

If they choose to understand that women are equal and it makes their life much better to understand that women have been badly served because their biology had disadvantaged them but they are as capable and intelligent as men.

Then they deserve the good and equitable relationships they will have.

And just a few posts above is agreement that ‘all men are vile’. A not uncommon MN post v

Obviously!

But FFS there are a lot of bad men out there. But that is for 'good men' to deal with. As I say to my husband and son, 'If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem'.

It's for men to sort the fuck out that there's shitty men all over.

Don't go all Andrew Tate and blame it on the wommenz.

Men need to sort men out.

I have spent 50 years telling men to sort their compadres out..

*2024GarlicCloves · Today 02:09

@Yalta, presumably they were childfree or had nannies? If neither partner was pulling a fast one on the other, they were both entitled to their pub time, surely*

Mostly childfree But would take it in turns in who got off to go straight home and pick up dc from nursery or wrap around care or nanny or kids were weekly termly boarders

It wasn’t just pub time that they were both indulging in.

There does seem to have been a shift and you don’t get the amount of married or living with partnered women going to the pub with work colleagues as a norm
Reading a lot of the posts on here women seem to put up with a lot more .

Maybe it was just the type of people I was friends with but they all had a much more equal relationship and as soon as it started to become unequal then they divorced and moved on

There was also for many a culture of not staying in work to actually finish up tasks after 5 or 5.30pm as that would mean working without pay so people were out the door and in the pub straight after work

@WhyMeWhyNowWhyNot interesting that you blame women for tolerating it, not men for their behaviour

There was also for many a culture of not staying in work to actually finish up tasks after 5 or 5.30pm as that would mean working without pay so people were out the door and in the pub straight after work

A lot were there because it was their 2nd job

Yep same. In my current office I haven't seen any men like this. In my previous office there were a couple like this.

I love how the women woth nice husbands/colleagues etc, saying 'not all men are like this' become the enemy in threads like this...

Whereas, of course, in some cultures this regularly happens to girl babies as a matter of course.

PP had it right : seeing so many men like this does make you wonder a bit.

I've seen real change over the years. I have always worked in male dominated industries / companies (starting with the army) where I saw a lot of awful behaviour, heard all the comments. And sure there were a lot of good men. There were also a lot who didn't challenge the shitty ones.

Now I'm at the other end of my working life, I notice far far fewer dick heads.

I love all the "stop generalising" posts. People stating "some men are horrible, some women are horrible, all the same etc".

But it's not all the same!! Of course some women are awful, and some men are brilliant- but we live in a patriarchy where social conditioning of boys from a young age is different. If MN is anything to go by - there are plenty of young boys growing up today watching their dad act like a prick...and guess what...a bunch of those boys will repeat that behaviour when they're adult.

So discussion on male behaviour, how men talk and treat women is of course relevant. And forums this is are helpful resources for women to get support to not tolerate it anymore and hopefully break some cycles

But to pretend we are the same is bollocks and only serves to retain the status quo.

@Agustus how do you deal with bad women?

Exactly! Also it seems to be assumed that they are being untruthful!