To ask-If you have a lot of girl friends, what is your secret?

[LKF01]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this thread or called a misogynist or something, but I'm genuinely feeling really down about my lack of friends. In the words of Taylor Swift, it's me, I'm the problem, it's me!!

For reference, I do have girl friends, I have about 6 friends that I've been friends with for years and that I see individually (as they don't know one another) regularly for dinner/ drinks etc, but I would like more. I'd like to socialise with someone each week, at the moment, I see one friend probably every 3 weeks on average and I'm starting to feel lonely, where I haven't before.

However, I have found and this is the honest truth (and if you can't be truthful on an anonymous forum, when can you be?) that women just don't seem to like me 😳 It's an issue I've had my whole life. I don't have the same problem with men and am more at ease around them (which I know probably helps).

I seem to piss women off, not so much one on one but if there's a group of women, I'll always be the one on the periphery and if there's say 3 of us, the other 2 after an hour or so will appear closer and irritated with me.

Our neighbour had a drinks evening a couple of weeks ago with us and two other couples. There were 2 women there from the village that I've known for years, have had evenings down the pub with them, drunken BBQ's in the summer etc and tbh, I always thought we were friends, or good acquaintances. However, I don't know what I did but after an hour or so, they just seemed unfriendly, going off together in another room constantly, if we were in the same room they'd talk between themselves and leave me out of the conversation completely. One of them was abrasive and a bit snappy with me all evening.

I just sat there in the end with the men, who were talking about stuff that I had no interest in, on my phone or sat there in silence when these other 2 women were sat next to me but one with their back to me so it was obvious I wasn't particularly welcome to join in their conversation and when I tried, got a lacklustre response. Neither of them asked me anything all evening, even though I hadn't seen them both for a couple of months. I took an interest in both their lives and they answered me, but didn't reciprocate, which is unusual for them.

I don't know, I could give you 100's of examples over the years of women just not taking to me.

I can tell you what I'm not:

Gushy- I don't gush over other women, complimenting them all the time or telling them how amazing they are in a way I see other women doing. If a friend is going through a hard time or whatever then I'll say something nice in context, but on the whole I find the fawning and gushing that a lot of women seem to do with one another quite fake and nauseating and I certainly don't expect it from other people. If I love someone's dress/ coat/ bag / hairstyle or whatever then I'll say so, but I don't just randomly give out compliments.

Maternal- Despite having 2 children (twins, otherwise I'd have been OAD!) and loving them with every fibre of my being, I've never been maternal and honestly? I have little interest in other people's children. I AM that woman at gatherings with kids who avoids them as much as I can and doesn't really make an effort with them. I'll interact with them a tiny bit, but generally I'm avoiding them. I know that some women dislike me for this, but I'm just not good with other people's children and don't enjoy the interaction so limit it. I do however make an effort for friend's children, I try and interact with them more and I always ask about them when I'm with my friends.

Sweet- I don't think I could be described as sweet (and I appreciate a lot of women aren't to be fair, I know this is a lazy stereotype but I do find a lot of women quite 'sweet' for want of a better word) but my sense of humour is generally quite lad bibley (fb/Instagram page/ feed for anyone who doesn't know) quite dry and sometimes sarcy. Favourite comedian is Ricky Gervais. I'd say I have more of a 'male' sense of humour, or perhaps that men just appreciate it more.

I appreciate there is some generalisations with the above and I don't mean any offence, I'm trying to really look at myself and decipher why it could be that women are put off me.

One thing I do is always take an interest in the other person, I always ask people how they are, how's work going, how are the kids getting on in school/ their hobbies etc. I do worry sometimes that people will think I'm interviewing them?

I've found over the last 5-6 years (probably since I've had DC and have been sleep deprived/ my brain seems to have gone on a permanent holiday!) that I have seemed to lose the art of conversation a bit, I find I struggle to make general chit chat and rely on questions to get conversations going/ sustain them. I'm wondering if that's where I'm going wrong, but I just don't seem to remember how to just chat without asking questions 😳

Can anyone help? If you have loads of girl friends, what are the things that other women seem to be attracted to you for? What makes you a good friend?

@Mintygoodness I'm glad you are giving lots of understanding and patience as, as a previous poster noted, neurotypicals can detect neurodiversity and often it leads to them holding them to impossible standards, bullying, setting them up to fail.
People who give space and understanding are true gems. What you will find is often autistic women are funny, very loyal and willing to go the extra mile so it is a two way thing. For example when my friends are ill I don't say I will pick up stuff/look after kids just for the sake of it. I genuinely intend to follow through.

I'm always wary of women who say they get on better with men.

Let’s try a different tack.

What was /is your mum like? What was / is your dad like? What kind of relationship did / do they have? What were the dynamics in your family - do you have siblings, are you an only ? And what’s your relations with them like ?

What I’m picking up is that you (perhaps unconsciously) disapprove of things that you perceive to be stereotypically female / girly. Something in your upbringing or early life experiences maybe taught you that these things are less worthy, less valuable, lower status than typically male attributes / interests etc. An awful lot of our preferences, values etc are set in our early years and can continue to influence us long after we’ve forgotten the actual events or lessons that we learned then.

@LKF01

Did you miss the part where I said I CONSTANTLY ask other people questions, about how they are, their work, their kids, house renovations etc. If there's one thing I do do is show an interest in other people, to the extent that I worry sometimes that people will think I'm interviewing them.

From what you've said here I wonder if you are lining up questions in your head but rather than actively listening to the response and taking the conversation from there, you are concentrating on your mental list of questions and planning what you are going to say next . Hence you are not really focusing on the other person.

FWIW I think that having 6 friends that you see individually approx every 3 weeks is actually quite a lot of friends and socialising.

@ConcealDontFeelPutonaShow yes, we like our classmate and although aged from 18-mid fifties everyone is mature and understanding. She is 29 so definitely not the youngest, there any many women younger.

What I will say is she is really good at what we are learning to do, including the people part. I am guessing that it's because she has clear guidelines on what the "correct" and successful way to do things is, which I guess is the black & white thinking people have mentioned.
I imagine it's also because she has a role in the interaction, it's not vague.
I will also hazard a guess that because she will technically be very good and is a genuinely kind person, if she does have future social slipups her client base will be forgiving.

Try some jokey ice-breaking vulnerability. Instead of retreating from a group that you don’t feel you’re connecting with tell one other person in the group that you feel awkward/shy/never know what to say at this kind of thing. Not in a heavy way, just a bit of self-deprecating openness to dispel the impression that your well groomed and naturally aloof looking face is giving off? I’m never well groomed but I’m a mix of shy and confident that lots of people i’m now close to have read as standoffish early on, I’ve found just stating that I’m friendlier than I look helps!

I have that problem and in my 40s, I realise it's being autistic. Like a PP pointed out, I don't actually get along better with men, it's just that I don't have the same expectation of wanting to make friends. I only realise this when I can see autistic traits in my DDs. It helped me a lot in finally feeling comfortable why I struggled socially.

I'm not saying it's your problem. It maybe something worth you looking into.

"I prefer conversation with women, I just find I'm more at ease in men's company."

What does this even mean?

You're either trying to find a rare mix in a person - someone who loves reality tv, talking about hair and make up but is also quite masculine in their personality.
I find most women with a more of a masculine outlook in life (or whatever the hell you want to call it) aren't always interested in reality tv or long and detailed conversations about hair and makeup, unless they're looking for tips or how to deal with issues.

Be more authentic and warm.

My post didn't make much sense but I wanted to highlight being authentic would help. It brings warmth and that's pretty important.

One thing I emphasized with my kids is that you have no idea where you will find a friend and sometimes you will unexpectedly meet someone you have so much in common with, which you wouldn't have believed on first impressions.

So try your best not to make assumptions about anyone else, i.e. what background or class they come from, how they speak, their education, where they live, their age, religion, ethnicity, if they are better looking (!) or not or have different style or what they do for a living etc. etc. None of this means you couldn't potentially become friends.

If you try not to work on assumptions and are generally open hearted and open minded with others, friends can be found where you least expect. As a result our family has an eclectic group of friends and our kids are great in service jobs as they are open to others.

For some of us, “not like other girls” translates as “not running the same operating system” - it’s not a criticism of other women, a stereotype or attention-seeking behaviour (which is often what is implied with that particular comment…). It’s just a statement about how fish-out-of-water we can feel in seemingly everyday situations - things that seem natural and easy to others can feel mystifying.
Fellow neurodiverse woman here 👋

For me the big problem with the "not like the other girls" being viewed as "not on the same operating system" is that it's not used by men and is rarely used in relation to friendships with men. There's something specifically gendered in its use and related ideas.

You don't tend to hear men talk about how they're not like the other men with a long list of stereotypes that are really just what some men are like (because manhood, like womanhood, covers a huge range of people and personalities).

The women who insist they're not like the other women also tend to be accompanied with a lot of sexist views about women and an insistence that men are easier to get on with, women are dramatic, women are emotional, sensitive, jealous, bitchy, don't luke attractive women etc etc.

I 100% understand the feeling of being a square peg in round hole social situations, but that's a neurodiversity thing, not a woman thing. It has nothing to do with being not like the other women because the "other women" are actually a huge range of people.

This post stood out to me, op. I have a fanily member, who is such a lovely, lovely person. But I do find spending time with her quite hard work. And I think the reason for this is because she fires so many questions at me. The conversation doesn't have a chance to warm up before she asks another question, not always related to the current topic. I spend my conversations with her, trying really hard to slip my own question to her in when i get the slightest chance, to get the focus off myself. And I don't struggle with conversations usually, in any way, with anyone else. They always just flow. But not with her. I'm sure it comes from insecurity. But it's very intense, and hard work.

As a pp has said, really try focusing on what someone is saying to you, and not on what your next comment/question will be. Concentrate on this, and I'm sure you'll notice a difference. I don't think any of the rest, attractive/glamorous or not, 'girly', 'blokey', sense of humour, etc, etc, is relevant.

I'm neither gushy nor sweet. I'm sarcastic, blunt and I play my cards close to my chest. But I have a lot of female friends, most of whom I've known for many years and a few relatively new ones. I'm extrovert and I'm funny (so I'm told). I'm also reliable and make an effort to keep in touch with people. My OH says I'm like a man sometimes in the things I say and the way I look at stuff. This hasn't stopped me getting on with women though. I don't know OP, why you are getting the reactions you are, maybe you just need to find some women on your wavelength. Sorry, I can't be of any help.

You sound quite similar to me, OP. I really struggle to make female friends and have done my whole life. It’s more apparent since I had my first child 2.5 years ago as I find it v hard to make friends with the other mums at her baby groups. I also feel more at ease with men and after a lot of self reflecting, I feel the reason for that is that when I was a teenager/early adult I felt most boys/men I interacted with found me attractive and I therefore felt confident in their presence and almost as though my personality didn’t matter so much so I was more at ease and myself with them. With girls/women, on the other hand, I felt insecurities as I felt my personality was boring/weird/socially awkward and I didn’t have my looks to fall back on in a female friendship. I always had my guard up and felt inferior to other women which comes across in my interactions with them. I’m quite closed and focused on trying to come across as ‘normal’ and like them, rather than feeling free and myself. I understand this sounds a bit conceited but it’s how it is and I have to add that since having my kids I am not so attractive and men don’t even give me a second glance anymore! But I still have the issues when talking to women. Maybe something like this could be your issue, subconsciously? Or you are just still very attractive and women are jealous, i don’t know. But I find that even beautiful women don’t have trouble making friends if they’re a nice person (not that you’re not a nice person!)

Can we give this "Women are jealous of attractive women"/ "I am too beautiful to have friends" a rest already?

What strikes me about this is how both your examples are of one person acting in a particular way. The other people in the group chat will have had a range of reactions, of which yours is one. You don’t need to spend long on a site like this to see that lots of people dislike school WhatsApp dynamics, for all sorts of reasons. Some of the other women will also have found it a bit OTT, others not. If the woman is popular, that’s likely to be because she’s friendly and positive rather than because everyone loves and aspires to her mode of communication.

The title of your thread is about how to make female friends. The substance of your posts is very much “how can I make female friends (when other women are so shit)?” It’s not a mindset conducive to making friends.

Indeed. I have literally never felt put off by a woman based on her looks, only her attitude.

My SIL is astonishingly beautiful and she's lovely to be with. I can't fathom not liking a woman because she's too beautiful, it just doesn't make sense.

I can imagine not getting on with someone who is too preoccupied with their looks (regardless of what they actually look like)

Talking to other women is a skill and I've accepted it doesn't come naturally to me. I'm just not typical for women in my interests or abilities. I would say to start with, just listen and think about how other women validate each other. A guy-ish sense of humor is not going to come across as validating to most women. It might come across as sarcastic or judgy, even if it's not directly used AT them, if you see what I mean. Along similar lines, you may see your acquaintance as superficial for her "Rah rah" words on the Whatsapp, but what she's doing is reflecting what many women see as a truth of womanhood, which is that our work holds our communities together. Now, would that same acquaintance disappear into the woodwork if a woman in the group developed a serious illness and needed community support? Maybe yes. But what she's offering isn't material support, but emotional validation. All of that "You go girl!" really does speak to many women and they respond to it.

I think you don't have to be gushy, but if you actively put out validation and empathy, I think people will perceive it. You might also have to slightly change the pathways of your conversation. I do something that may be similar, kind of line up questions in my mind in advance, so that I can show interest, but then when the person answers my question, I don't always know how to respond in a way that keeps that line of conversation going. So I switch to a different question and it can come off as if I'm not really listening (I just can't listen and come up with responses at the same time) or that I'm interviewing them. So I get it. I would say there that you actually do not have to come up with cogent responses. If you ask, "How are your parents" and the response you get back is "Not well at all, dad was in the hospital" then you don't have to come up with something intelligent. "I'm so sorry to hear that," is all you need and then you can leave a space for her to keep going if she wants to.

You said you try to show vulnerability by talking about your problems too and again that can be a can of worms. For example, if you complain about your MIL, that may be taken to be judgy, especially if you are very much on target about her faults and flaws. Certain types of complaining are accepted, others are seen as judgy or overly critical. So you have to be careful what you expose in conversation. For example, if you say your MIL is selfish or flaky, it might be true, but the person you're talking to might also be wondering, "I wonder if LKF thinks I'm selfish/flaky and if her MIL is really as selfish/flaky as she thinks or if she's just a judgy person."

You don't tend to hear men talk about how they're not like the other men with a long list of stereotypes that are really just what some men are like (because manhood, like womanhood, covers a huge range of people and personalities).

I definitely have. Plenty of my male friends (and indeed DP) have talked about how much they hate the stereotypically laddish beer/girls/football culture and how they feel alienated by it.

I felt a lot like the OP at school, when I was definitely, firmly on the outside of the popular/mean girls clique. And I developed a bit of a "not like the other girls" attitude - which wasn't entirely misplaced, given that the reasons I wasn't like them (not sporty, not white, not conventionally pretty, more interested in books than beauty) were the reasons I wasn't welcomed by them.

But then I got over it when I got to university and met girls who were like me, and then I got over it even more when I graduated and actually found my tribe for real.

There's a certain type of woman I'll probably never get on with (and a certain type of man) - preference for gender-segregated socialising is the biggest red flag for me - but that's fine. They don't represent all women to me any more.

See I think it’s all this that I struggle with. That I can’t just say what’s on my mind (within reason, obviously) that there’s just so many ‘rules’ that one has to follow, it’s exhausting. So what if I’m judgemental about my MIL for example, if she’s doing something completely unreasonable that deserves judgement, so what? Does she have good qualities, yes? But people (like when we post on MN) don’t really sit and chat about people’s good qualities so much, if we’re having a moan it’s because something is wrong. If someone were complaining about a family member to me, it wouldn’t even occur to me to be worried that they’d be thinking the same about me- unless I also displayed the behaviours they were complaining about.

I haven’t RTFT but it strikes me that you tend to wonder so much if ‘they’ like you that you might not have asked yourself, ‘do I like them?’
The women you describe as neighbours/friends sound rude and I don’t think I’d like them!

You sound like a perfectly ordinary woman to me, with an ordinary number of female friends. However if you've decided its a problem and you're all out to collect more friends, perhaps you're coming over as a bit pushy and needy and it's putting other women off?

Do you dominate the conversation?
Are you negative?
Talk too much?

Try asking questions and listen without interrupting

In my experience the type of woman who talks about getting on better with men than other women has accepted the societal stereotype that male behaviour and interests are more important than women's. This often comes across and certainly sets my teeth on edge....

I have had very similar assumptions and experiences with women, before kids I didn't have any problems or if I did I didn't realise; since having kids, I found the school gates experience so very false and other parents can be all over you or just don't bother. I really found mums to be two faced and had some horrible experiences.
Work colleagues should stay colleagues, women I mean, there's some real back biting bitchiness, it's just best to get in with your life and don't be an over sharer.
I have just backed Off socially tbh, school was too cliquey, work , never socialised with anyone from work.

All my friends whom I thought were my friends either live abroad, socialise with their husbands friends wives or have just lost contact which could be partly my fault also.
I've tried making friends with other women but I've come to the conclusion that I like my own company too much or I cannot really trust anyone as I find no one truly wants to be friends anymore, the only time people speak to me is if they've no one else to talk to, so no, I don't have lots of close friends and wouldn't be interested in false friendships.