To ask-If you have a lot of girl friends, what is your secret?

[LKF01]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this thread or called a misogynist or something, but I'm genuinely feeling really down about my lack of friends. In the words of Taylor Swift, it's me, I'm the problem, it's me!!

For reference, I do have girl friends, I have about 6 friends that I've been friends with for years and that I see individually (as they don't know one another) regularly for dinner/ drinks etc, but I would like more. I'd like to socialise with someone each week, at the moment, I see one friend probably every 3 weeks on average and I'm starting to feel lonely, where I haven't before.

However, I have found and this is the honest truth (and if you can't be truthful on an anonymous forum, when can you be?) that women just don't seem to like me 😳 It's an issue I've had my whole life. I don't have the same problem with men and am more at ease around them (which I know probably helps).

I seem to piss women off, not so much one on one but if there's a group of women, I'll always be the one on the periphery and if there's say 3 of us, the other 2 after an hour or so will appear closer and irritated with me.

Our neighbour had a drinks evening a couple of weeks ago with us and two other couples. There were 2 women there from the village that I've known for years, have had evenings down the pub with them, drunken BBQ's in the summer etc and tbh, I always thought we were friends, or good acquaintances. However, I don't know what I did but after an hour or so, they just seemed unfriendly, going off together in another room constantly, if we were in the same room they'd talk between themselves and leave me out of the conversation completely. One of them was abrasive and a bit snappy with me all evening.

I just sat there in the end with the men, who were talking about stuff that I had no interest in, on my phone or sat there in silence when these other 2 women were sat next to me but one with their back to me so it was obvious I wasn't particularly welcome to join in their conversation and when I tried, got a lacklustre response. Neither of them asked me anything all evening, even though I hadn't seen them both for a couple of months. I took an interest in both their lives and they answered me, but didn't reciprocate, which is unusual for them.

I don't know, I could give you 100's of examples over the years of women just not taking to me.

I can tell you what I'm not:

Gushy- I don't gush over other women, complimenting them all the time or telling them how amazing they are in a way I see other women doing. If a friend is going through a hard time or whatever then I'll say something nice in context, but on the whole I find the fawning and gushing that a lot of women seem to do with one another quite fake and nauseating and I certainly don't expect it from other people. If I love someone's dress/ coat/ bag / hairstyle or whatever then I'll say so, but I don't just randomly give out compliments.

Maternal- Despite having 2 children (twins, otherwise I'd have been OAD!) and loving them with every fibre of my being, I've never been maternal and honestly? I have little interest in other people's children. I AM that woman at gatherings with kids who avoids them as much as I can and doesn't really make an effort with them. I'll interact with them a tiny bit, but generally I'm avoiding them. I know that some women dislike me for this, but I'm just not good with other people's children and don't enjoy the interaction so limit it. I do however make an effort for friend's children, I try and interact with them more and I always ask about them when I'm with my friends.

Sweet- I don't think I could be described as sweet (and I appreciate a lot of women aren't to be fair, I know this is a lazy stereotype but I do find a lot of women quite 'sweet' for want of a better word) but my sense of humour is generally quite lad bibley (fb/Instagram page/ feed for anyone who doesn't know) quite dry and sometimes sarcy. Favourite comedian is Ricky Gervais. I'd say I have more of a 'male' sense of humour, or perhaps that men just appreciate it more.

I appreciate there is some generalisations with the above and I don't mean any offence, I'm trying to really look at myself and decipher why it could be that women are put off me.

One thing I do is always take an interest in the other person, I always ask people how they are, how's work going, how are the kids getting on in school/ their hobbies etc. I do worry sometimes that people will think I'm interviewing them?

I've found over the last 5-6 years (probably since I've had DC and have been sleep deprived/ my brain seems to have gone on a permanent holiday!) that I have seemed to lose the art of conversation a bit, I find I struggle to make general chit chat and rely on questions to get conversations going/ sustain them. I'm wondering if that's where I'm going wrong, but I just don't seem to remember how to just chat without asking questions 😳

Can anyone help? If you have loads of girl friends, what are the things that other women seem to be attracted to you for? What makes you a good friend?

I think you possibly come across as somewhat judgemental and standoffish. I wouldn’t use words like maternal or gushing or sweet to describe myself or any of the women I know, and I can’t say I notice those things in many women at all. Most people like to spend time with people who they feel they can have a good time with, who put them at ease make them feel comfortable, make them laugh, make them feel happy.

Also this. Putting aside that my female friends are all women, we also have things in common - most likely a similar sense of humour, enjoyment of the same things, a similar moral code etc. When I have a problem, they offer good advice and I'd like to think that I do the same for them. the friends I'm spending time with in the next few weeks include a small group planning a theatre trip and dinner, a good friend for dog walking and coffee, another friend for yoga and lunch (we normally do dinner but life is crazy with kids things this term for both of us). At those meet ups, we'll talk about everything from our children and families, to work to the ridiculousness of trans women in women's spaces. Yoga friend and I will swap updates on our latest tv watching and agree which characters we love/hate in the new season of Reacher. At some point, someone is probably going to want to discuss the likelihood of a labour government. There will be giggling about ridiculous things our children have said (or outrageous comments about how much our children annoy us), one friend will update me on her latest art project which I'm exited to hear about and there will definitely be some laughs about family and friend antics over Christmas.

... these are the things my friends and I talk about and are interested in (among others). So to be my friend, you'd have similar interests and outlooks.

Your sole desire for more friends is to socialise once a week, it seems. You don't seem to be interested in forming genuine connections with people. I would just join local interest groups.
I don't particularly enjoy other people's children, I am autistic so don't understand the intricacies of "social performance" (small talk, compliments etc.). I don't have heaps of friends but I do have a couple of very close ones. I don't socialise with them nearly often enough. I only see my best friend once a year (she lives abroad) and we can pick up the conversation exactly where we left it. What makes the difference, I guess, is focusing on quality rather than quantity. Friends are not there to fill your social calendar, OP.

Sorry I see you are lonely. But I think meeting friends once a week is not that common in adulthood. Maybe try doing some hobby once a week. You may not make a true friend but it will make you feel less lonely.

One of the things that comes across in your post is that you seem to be lumping all women together in some “other” group. (The “I’m not like all the other girls” factor that so many have picked up on).

You seem to have quite a male attitude to women. You are looking for a transaction - something you can get from them (their company, for a few hours every 2-3 weeks, so you don’t feel lonely). This isn’t really how most female friendships work. If that’s what you are looking for you might be better served looking for a hobby group that meets on that frequency.

Most friendships, especially female friendships, are about forming a connection with the person, and that is done by getting to know people on a deeper level.

I also think it's quite telling that in your example you singled out the women for not talking to you, when you say yourself you sat with the men who talked about stuff you weren't interested in (and were presumably not talking to you just as much as the women).

You are not a warm person, and people who aren't are difficult to be open and vulnerable with. Being able to be open and vulnerable is, for most people, the base of a friendship. It doesn't sound like you are interested in others but just ask them questions because you know you are supposed to.

If you look at the 6 friends you have, why do you think you are friends? Are they also not warm people, or are they self-sacrificing or lonely people?

I’m not gushy, maternal or sweet 🙄 (as you put it) and I have loads of female friends, always have. I have several different groups of female friends, plus individuals.

if ‘gushy, maternal and sweet’ is how you are perceiving female friendships to be, then maybe that’s the problem. You do sound a bit ‘not like the other girls’ and that you are looking down on quite normal ways of female communication.

how do I make female friends? Not pre-judging them, that’s a good start. By giving them attention, listening to what they are saying. If I like what they are saying, then I’ll lean in to the potential friendship.

@JadziaD excellent post.

I have a lot of female friends, collected over the years from various stages of my life and the shared experience of womanhood is threaded through nearly all of them. I find it difficult to relate to women who don’t relate to that.

if you genuinely want more female friends then there’s a couple of things you can do and I speak as someone who has lived an worked all over the world and had to make whole new groups of friends from scratch.

1. Be open. You are not for everyone and everyone is not for you, but for the ten minutes, 3 hours or 2 days that you are together, treat your interactions like it’s a possibility. It’s so easy to decide in the first 5mins that “they’re not my sort of person”, but you know nothing about them, consider the possibility that they might be exactly your type of person.
2. Be curious. Ask open questions, actively listen, encourage them to share their thoughts
3. Compliment. You don’t need to gush and indeed gushing is off putting but a well timed, honest compliment is a wonderful thing to receive.
4. Don’t judge. We’ve all said something stupid at some point and realised we could easily be misinterpreted, don’t hold it against someone the first or even the second time

How to talk to anyone is a pretty good book for getting started.

Hope this doesn't come across as piling on, but like others have said, the clear and overwhelming sense I get from your post is that you consider yourself different from, and in obscure ways better than, the majority of women.

This may well not be what you think or feel - only you can truly know. But the words you use to describe women in general to me do sound very dismissive and also scathing. "Gushy" sounds superficial and melodramatic - you could have used a phrase like "compassionate" or "kind" to convey what you mean, but you chose not to.

If this idea comes across in a short post, I wonder how much more strongly it may be conveyed in RL interactions?

And I would not be friends with anybody who considered themselves inherently superior, either to me as an individual, and even less so to womankind in general.

Do you consider yourself to have flaws? I think a sense of humility is by far the most appealing quality in.a friend - to me anyway.

If you have 6 long term friends then I think you can clearly sustain relationships which is a good thing!

I have lots of female friends and make friends quickly. I think the main thing is I just naturally really like other women. There are obviously occasional exceptions but in general I find most women I meet pleasant, kind, funny, warm and interesting. I assume any new woman I meet is going to be the same, and I’m usually right.

Your post slightly suggests you don’t feel that way - that you maybe expect that women won’t like you or your sense of humour, or that they’ll be overly sweet / nauseating / fake etc. If that’s your expectation you might be inadvertently giving off a slightly hostile vibe that is putting women off.

Honestly, your post made me bristle, with the comments on women being gushy and sweet, while you are non-maternal and have a “male sense of humour”, whatever that is.

And I wonder if that is what comes over in your personal interactions too, that you feel you are not like other women, possible dare I say a bit superior? If you are giving off that impression by your expressions and body language, never mind your interactions, you will put others off. Meet people as people, whether men or women, put aside your expectations and take them as they are - be prepared to be surprised.

Gosh, sorry, the replies have run away from me a bit. As much as I'd love to reply to everyone individually, I think I'll have to give broader replies.

I did say in my OP that I realised I was generalising by the sweet, gushy, maternal comments. I meet plenty of women who aren't all or any of these things, but, on the whole I think women are more maternal, sweet and gushy than men. It doesn't offend me as a woman for that to be said. I don't even really meant it in a negative way (apart from the overly gushiness) I'm just pointing out that generally, I'm not really any of these things which I think could be impacting my friendships.

In terms of listening to friends and offering support/ showing interest in their lives, I really think I do. I remember when they start new jobs and always message to wish them luck/ ask how it went, I remember their children's birthdays and send them gifts, I check in if they're going through stuff (one of my friend's marriage is rocky at the moment so I'm checking in on her more frequently) I think I also show my vulnerable side by sharing my problems when I have them, I'll talk about work issues, moan about my MIL, that DH has forgot to pack the twins wellies for 2 days in a row etc. Just usual stuff I guess, but then I worry that I'm dominating conversations and moaning too much.

I think a lot of the issue is that I care too much about how I come across nowadays, I'm on edge, constantly wanting to say the right thing or not offend. I don't feel this way so much when I interact with men, I don't know why, I just don't.

I was speaking to my husband about it the other night and he said 'well yes but women's friendships are so much more complex. I remember my 2 sisters growing up always having some sort of friendship dramas/ fallings out, yet with my friends there really wasn't any.' I thought back to my own friendships growing up and that of my brother's and realised it was similar. But if I say that, I'm generalising, being misogynistic. I do feel women are a lot more easily offended and there seems to be so many nuances involved with socialising with them, nuances which I just don't seem to be able to grasp. Maybe I'm ND, I don't know.

Someone asked if I'm attractive, well again, since it's an anonymous forum I guess yes, I am. I will also always ensure I have make up on and my hair is straightened. I'm never without either. I do think sometimes (especially in my children's early years at playgroups and so on) it put women off me, probably because I lacked a certain vulnerability or they felt I was judging them? I absolutely wasn't, I don't wear make up and style my hair to make others feel like shit, I do it to make myself feel better. But I do think it's a contributing factor. Both of the women at the party before Christmas didn't have any make up on and were dressed in leggings and baggy jumpers, which is FINE before anyone jumps on me, but one of them made a sneery 'oh here comes LKF looking all glamorous as usual' with an eyeroll and tbh, I just felt it quite nasty and sneery and there's no way I'd say that to someone.

Are you very attractive?

YABVU if you think all women with friends are "gushy, maternal and sweet"- like WTAF? I have lots of close female friends and NONE of us are like that. Do you really think women have to be like this to like each other?

Perhaps its your perceptions of what women want in friendships that is causing you issues because I rarely meet women like this

This weird idea that women hate other women if they are attractive is just nonsense. Perhaps it makes some women feel better to think that the reason they struggle with friendships is nothing to do with their personality or their actual substance but simply jealousy about their looks, but it’s just not true and doesn’t actually help women like the OP with the issue of how to overcome friendship struggles and develop friendships. And frankly it’s very dismissive of and insulting to all the women out there who do have close friends, it’s ultimately an insinuation that having friends means you’re unattractive.

Sorry but the "women are more complex/dramatic" line is such a misogynistic dogwhistle, even if you don't intend it to be. The fact that a man said it really tracks.

You have to ask yourself, are women more "dramatic" or are they just more in touch with their feelings and able to communicate their emotions better than men? Now I am generalising, and with good reason.

Regarding being "more attractive" (whatever that means)- it's not your hair and makeup that is putting other women off you, it's your attitude. They don't "feel like you're judging them", you are judging them.

Regarding being "more attractive" (whatever that means)- it's not your hair and makeup that is putting other women off you, it's your attitude. They don't "feel like you're judging them", you are judging them

Yup- I always make an effort with my appearance- makeup/hair/great clothes, get loads of compliments from men and women etc, never had an issue with being attractive preventing me from getting or keeping friends

I'm absolutely not judging them and it's people saying stuff like this that really gets my back up. I'm just trying to get through life, I barely have the energy to get through each day, I run on v little sleep, I'm permanently knackered, I absolutely do not give a crap what other women wear or how they present themselves, so why do they feel the need to make sneery comments about my own appearance? Of which, I've had quite a few over the years.

You are saying something that isn't remotely true, with such absolute certainty.

I think you have an awful lot of internalised misogyny OP. Not your fault, but something you might really benefit from working on. It really comes across in your use of language. You consistently put yourself outside of the group “women”.

As just one example … “I do feel women are a lot more easily offended and there seems to be so many nuances involved with socialising with them.”. It’s not “them”, it is “us”. You are one of the group you are talking about.

I’m not sure you’ve taken in anything that’s been said, apart from one strange comment about whether you’re attractive.

Sorry OP but you are judging them- it's clear from all your posts. The othering, the generalising, the fact that you think being "gushing" is a negative.

I'm not saying you necessarily intend to do this, and I do sympathise with you feeling like you're struggling with making friends. But it's certainly internalised misogyny that's got you here, and as PP have said you could benefit from working on this rather than coming onto a forum and asking for the cheat code to befriending women like they're some sort of exotic species that you have no idea about.

She is giving you her opinion OP, you can’t say her opinion isn’t remotely true. This is the impression you’re giving off the EVERYONE here. I’m not surprised you struggle to form friendships. I am surprised you care.

This re internalised misogyny.

on the whole I think women are more maternal, sweet and gushy than men. It doesn't offend me as a woman for that to be said.

But it IS offensive. These are not, broadly, words with overwhelming positive connotations. even "maternal" which seems like a neutral word, really isn't. And I an assure you that the vast bulk of the women in my life are not naturally "maternal". In fact, it's probably one of the things I have in common with most of the women I'm friends with - we may or may not have children, but we don't consider ourselves maternal and are certainly often frustrated by how being a mother impacts us.

Unfortunately I can relate to your post.

I would love to have more female friends -they’re more chatty, interesting, responsive and uplifting, IME. I just don’t know how to find any!

My male friends are fine, but honestly sometimes I just want to talk about fashion, the best brunch spots in London, skincare, supplements, the best pilates studios, the pros and cons of egg freezing, shitty men on dating apps, self-improvement podcasts, etc. etc.

I crave FEMALE chat, I can’t describe it any other way.

It doesn’t sound like you have any more affiliation with men than you do women considering you were just sitting near them.

I have never known a woman who dislikes another woman because they are attractive. This is some sort of movie bullshit. In fact, I have a lot of male friends (mostly due to the industry I work in), and they tend to be the ‘bitchy’ ones. I’ve heard them say things like ‘she thinks a lot of herself’, when someone walks away despite being all pally with them earlier.

Have you tried comparing who you get on better with in relation to people’s skin/hair/eye colour? You could probably make wild assumptions about that too.

Some people just don’t come across as friendly, and in my experience ‘gushy and sweet’ are seen as negative rather than positive factors.