‘You need to accept that both our mothers are going to move in with us’

[Wigglytuff123]

Is what DH said to me… instant chills

I do not speak the same language as my MIL, not even a little and I find her very very hard work, truthfully there’s a lot of water under the bridge. She’s just turned 60

now to my own mother fractious history. I was the scapegoated child and sibling golden child (single narcissistic mother, at points she was down right abusvie and cruel) the worm has turned somewhat as sibling has very similar narcissistic tendencies as mother and sticky fingers (Steals despite being mid 30s) and no longer talks to mother as was caught in the act. Mother is 70s

both single, divorced and widowed.

is dh right? Truthfully the thought of either of them living with us fills me with dread

what prompted this conversation was we’re planning a 3rd child and dh was making his case to consider a 5/6 bed house for a move, whereas I don’t think staying in a 4 bed with a garden office sounds too awful.

is he right? I don’t know why but I feel quite resentful to take on a mortgage in a much larger house for them to move in, and if one moves in the other will be pissed the other didn’t, and both together, no way.

at least my mum would be bringing capital, his mum wouldn’t be putting anything into the house

A huge thing too is that my children don’t like her- language barrier and not being able to interact with children. Without going into detail, she abused my husband as a child too, not necessarily with malice but I think from not having the mental faculties to care for a child and understand what is right and wrong.

for instance when he was a toddler and he’d misbehave or wouldn’t sleep when she was tired, she’d tie him to a chair or bed and then walk away and go to sleep

It would be a definite no from me. I can accept the necessity of looking after elderly parents, but that doesn't automatically mean they should live with you. There are many other ways of helping them.

It seems to be working well in your case, because your MIL can still look after herself and even cooks for everyone.
By the sound of it, you get on reasonably well with her.
I think that in a case like yours it’s easier to fulfil cultural expectations.
In OP’s case, she doesn’t seem to be getting on with her MIL at all, her MIL criticises her and makes fun of her.
I really can’t blame OP for not wanting to live with her MIL.
I understand these are cultural norms.
It just seems unfair that the MIL can apparently behave like she wants towards her DIL, not make any effort to establish an amicable relationship and still expect to be able to move in with her, and OP is left with the choice of either putting up with it or divorcing her husband.
OP’s MIL is 60 and moved to the UK 30 years ago if I’m not mistaken - so she was a young woman and has since had plenty of time to make herself at least a little bit familiar with the local cultural norms.

I really don't understand this flogging of a dead horse with (paraphrasing) 'when they get to the state that they have to move in with you'

There is no state that anyone 'has' to move in with their kids. They might want to, they might even feel entitled to. None of that is actually relevant if the household they want to move into don't want them to. It's a choice.

OP can say no. No one is going to put a gun to her head at some point in the future and say 'your MIL is old and has dementia, has 18 months to live, has to be cared for round the clock, so she's moving in with you now.' Tough luck.

If she's at that stage, with no ability to fund her own care, and assessed as unable to live in her own home then SS step in and arrange a care home. That is the default situation. Anything else from OP is voluntary.

How on earth do the 'they have to move in' posters think people with no relatives survive? They're not left to languish on the streets ffs.

OPs DH might feel like he has to let her move in - it certainly doesn't sound like he actually wants her to move in! - but it's not just his house. OP and their DC live there too. They get a say too. It sounds like she's not only a horrible woman now, but was abusive to him as a child.

I'm amazed OP or DH even speak to their 'D' Ms let alone are having a discussion about living with them. If OP decides she can't live with MIL - and I wouldnt either - then it's up to DH who he lives with, because it can't be both his wife and his mother.

@Wigglytuff123

You questioned my assertion that it is about 18m (12-24) from the point of crisis until the point of death or admission to a care home.

Your grandmother moved in because she wanted to, not because there was a crisis and she needed to. And this is why her stay with you was so enormously prolonged at 10 years.

Absolutely do not let either woman move in with you due to “want” as per your grandmother. Have the option open to you due to need - predominantly your need - for example with ourselves we were lacking in sleep and kids were suffering due to all the time lost in travel and duplicated tasks. Having an option to move in would have been preferable. But again only really viable if you ensure the care package is transferable or two household status maintained (see CAB/solicitor).

The reason you had issues with your grandmother was there was nothing wrong with her to begin with, therefore no social services involvement, nor ability to seek power of attorney (which would allow you to go over her head in relation to DLA/PIP, bluebadge, carers allowance. Although in reality, carers allowance is an absolute pittance; if you work at all you are unlikely to get it and most out of work are better to claim other benefits).

This idea that the government is going to roll out the red carpet and give adequate care to your relatives is straight from an alternate dimension.

Let me be clear. Ideally both of these women will remain in their own home, or at least retain separate household status, that is the ideal solution for all, because then they can access maximum care.

But that is inadequate.

Maximum 5 calls a day, lasting between 10-30 minutes, usually about 15.

There will be hygiene issues, food will be crap so then you’ll have health issues resulting, they may have multiple continence issues or difficulty getting to the bathroom on time, depression due to loneliness, falls in the night.

You will be responsible for overnight care; to get overnight respite is about £200 per night. You will be responsible for managing admin (utilities/forms), home maintenance, washing, organising a cleaner, hospital appointments. And helping them to have some quality of life and interaction with the world.

Some would say there is a moral obligation and particularly if you are due to inherit, it’s very bad form to sit and do nothing.

You obviously hate both of them and wouldn’t mind to see them suffer. Mistakenly you believe that you will sit back with the authorities mopping up the mess, and you think you will manage to avoid any inconvenience to your life… it doesn’t work that way; social services, nhs etc will plague you and you will be the first to be called to take responsibility.

I think the best you can hope for, if your husbands position is to move them in at the first whiff of old age, is to press with him that this is unacceptable but to reassure him you will help adding extra support to LA services in the event of a health crisis. Compromise, or I reckon your marriage is a dead duck.

’you obviously hate them both’ that is YOUR inference. I do not hate them BUT these are two women who for a very long time, went out of their way to be cruel to me, so the thought of caring for them isn’t particularly appealing as neither of them can still muster up the good grace to treat me with basic fucking dignity.

there is no inheritance from MIL, everything she has has been provided for her by DH, so it is his in the first place. And for my mother, what I’ll be left with is a right mess. Her mothers house that she has left to ruin because she won’t do probate, and her house which is full to the rafters. I’ll have to sort all of that for my sibling to inherit 50%. Sibling will do 0% of the care but will inherit if we’re boiling it down to money. But even if there was millions on the table I’d feel exactly the same way, I’d rather forgo the money that I may or may not get. she will not act now, ive asked and offered to help but she will not meet me in the middle.

but let’s say she does, we sort the other properties out (which is good sense) and move toward moving her closer here, away from all her friends, she’ll become exactly like my grandmother and isolated. Then ok we buy a bigger house with some of the capital she gives and then it’s deprivation of assets, maybe we can get around that if she gives a few hundred k before hand and we buy a bigger house sooner and she buys a small 2 bed house before and then if and when she moves in later. But then all hell will break loose from my MIL as she will have been ‘prevented’ from moving in in lieu of my mother.

so what happens then for people who have no children?

^ oh and @Justia vile comment about my marriage btw, vile

How on earth do the 'they have to move in' posters think people with no relatives survive?

I’ve been wondering that too.
We have friends whose parents are in a care home.
There was no intermediate period where those parents moved in with their kids because they couldn’t live by themselves anymore.
The poster who described how at one point they helped caring for three elderly relatives, whilst working, studying and looking after a baby - that’s pretty impressive, but not everyone has the capacity/ is willing to do that.
And why berate OP for catastrophising and then proceed to describe a situation which renders her ‘catastrophising’ perfectly reasonable?

You don't have to live your life according to the mores of a culture based thousands of miles away.

His mum's my age. All being well for her, you'll have DECADES of her in your home, your life, your face.

When you marry into a particular culture, that culture comes with your husband. He's steeped in it.

You will either cave in and comply, or you'll say and stick to your NO.

If you comply, you'll have to learn to cope - or crack.

If you say no, you'll have tantrums from both.

I'd recommend you create a game plan for every eventuality. Worse case scenarios, how you'll respond if they happen.

Set rock solid boundaries and keep stating them.

If he won't budge please stop and think about the wisdom of any more children with him. And her. Because she'll be there.

With respect, it doesn’t sound very much like you are prepared to let them have any dignity at all if your main plan for them in later life is to leave them to the authorities.

I completely understand that these people have caused you pain, and I’m so sorry they did/do. But that won’t make any difference to what you personally face with them as they age. My relatives were positively painful at times in life, but they had needs and we met them as were obligated to.

Yes, I do understand there is nothing from your MIL. I was referring to your mother.

Her mothers estate being mismanaged and the house bunged is why you need to address it now. It is a million times harder to do once they have health problems or have deceased. Your mother is placing you in an impossible situation by her refusal. The best you can do is keep pushing to resolve things.

And I know you have resentment towards your sibling, their favouritism and lack of work relative to your mother. You won’t have to have contact post her death if you don’t want, and karma usually gets these people in the end.

Sorting out of the properties could take 5years+, maybe 10, by the time probate is done, works carried out for sale, sale completed. Your mothers house cleared and same done. A new property sourced and purchased.

By the time it is all done she could be closer to 80.

It sounds like you have gone through trauma with both women and due to the situation with your grandmother. I think you can avoid a repeat scenario with careful planning and realism.

Rather than having it out with me, you need to speak to your husband, citizens advice and a solicitor to work out the best path forward.

I don’t know all the ins and outs of your financial situation and the law. There should be a straightforward solution but you need more information to be able to arrive at it.

You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t. So personally I would take the option that works best for you.
Im sure if MIL moved in the next thing would be to pressurise you to give up work as she needs someone there all the time.
I think if you already don’t get on and you aren’t willing to be completely submissive to her (which is how this works) then it’s just going to be a disaster.

i do know someone whose gran lived in an annex, it was a very relaxed agreement though and gran amused herself and came through for meals. When they went on holiday gran went into an old people’s home for respite. But they already all got on, they all had the same expectations of what was happening.

In my experience what happens to people with no children is that they can suffer for a long time before social services step in.

During this period their mental and physical health declines, often they are very isolated and vulnerable. Many are taken advantage of.

Some are lucky and have neighbours, friends and more distant relatives step in (this is what happened with my relatives who had no offspring).

Overall, it is a very sorry state and there is a lot of suffering both for the person and the people who have to step in (who already have parents, grandparents and children to care for).

@Wigglytuff123

How?

If your husband wants her to move in completely soon (for no health reason).

And you want to do nothing even if there are major care concerns.

That’s a huge chasm between you.

How can you expect anything else other than your relationship to falter?

Without some compromise and working together to address the concerns you will have major problems.

@JFDIYOLO

I'd recommend you create a game plan for every eventuality. Worse case scenarios, how you'll respond if they happen.
**
Set rock solid boundaries and keep stating them.

This is very good advice, and exactly what I’ve been trying to hammer home to OP.

Seeking proper advice now and forming those plans is so important to protect your own nuclear family.

At some point care needs will arise and it is better to be prepared.

I'm confused - OP has never said that she will wash her hands of caring for either her MIL or her DM, or that she expects the NHS/the state to just pick up the pieces. As I understand it, she is just saying she doesn't want them to move in with her. She has seen how badly it worked out when her own DGM moving in to the family home at a relatively "young" age and doesn't want history to repeat, especially with a MIL who has form for unpleasant behaviour.

I think there is some projection going on here and comments about how the OPs marriage is stuffed or how she wants her MIL to live without dignity are uncalled for.

Actually all your stupid little comments are so antagonistic, like how I don’t want them to live with dignity and to buy two houses and even trying to hammer home things to me as if 50% of what you said hasn’t been utterly ridiculous

@Olinguita

She’s repeatedly saying, what happens to those with no kids

What happens for people with no children then? If there is care in place for them then there will be care in place for our parents.

I think under some sort of mistaken misapprehension that the LA will step in and do the bulk. They don’t, even at the maximum - when a person is wheelchair/bed bound - it is 5 calls a day 2 1/2 hours… there are 21 1/2 other hours of care to cover, plus cleaning, washing, meal prep, shopping.

Overall, if someone is in that state and you can’t get a care home place it can be less hassle to move them in until they qualify for a care home or a place becomes available. But it depends on the circumstances of their health and the family’s position at the time issues occur.

All I have said to OP is to avoid moving in unless absolutely necessary and to her own benefit. To keep it open as an option.

@Wigglytuff123

There is no need to be nasty.

I am trying to help you. I wouldn’t wish anyone to go through what we went through as a family.

It was incredibly harmful, and I really wish we had had the opportunity to plan in advance.

You are actually really lucky that your husband is pushing a conversation about this now, to get plans and boundaries in place.

And I never said buy two houses!!

Your mother would buy her own house near you or invest for you to buy a bigger house or one with scope to convert an outbuilding or floor of it to an annexe.

That’s quite a common thing to do. We have two properties near us with this arrangement and are considering similar for my father now.

Actually you’ve been quite nasty in your goady and loaded comments.

Because YOU have said repeatedly that is all falls in the kids, I believe you said ‘the buck stops with you’… I’m pointing out that it simply cannot stop with me or anyone’s next of kin as simply some people do not have next of kin.

That is precisely it, thank you

@Wigglytuff123

Nothing I’ve said has been designed to upset you or develop argument.

I’ve tried to give you the benefit of my experience dealing with elderly and unwell relatives and residents the care system and what is asked of family members or whomever is available.

Where people have no relations they have more adverse physical and mental health outcomes, shortened life expectancy and poor quality of life. If the LA steps in it is not sufficient.

I highly doubt your husband would view this situation developing with his own mother and do nothing.

And I doubt that you would do nothing for your own mother, despite your grievances, as you appear to have a degree of familial obligation and are due to inherit.

From an outsiders perspective it doesn’t look like the buck will stop anywhere else, if you and husband remain together.

So being proactive in planning seems sensible. While maintaining that MIL especially shall not be moving in simply due to old age.

Have you actually read the Ops description of her mum? He's not being kind in any way!