‘You need to accept that both our mothers are going to move in with us’

[Wigglytuff123]

Is what DH said to me… instant chills

I do not speak the same language as my MIL, not even a little and I find her very very hard work, truthfully there’s a lot of water under the bridge. She’s just turned 60

now to my own mother fractious history. I was the scapegoated child and sibling golden child (single narcissistic mother, at points she was down right abusvie and cruel) the worm has turned somewhat as sibling has very similar narcissistic tendencies as mother and sticky fingers (Steals despite being mid 30s) and no longer talks to mother as was caught in the act. Mother is 70s

both single, divorced and widowed.

is dh right? Truthfully the thought of either of them living with us fills me with dread

what prompted this conversation was we’re planning a 3rd child and dh was making his case to consider a 5/6 bed house for a move, whereas I don’t think staying in a 4 bed with a garden office sounds too awful.

is he right? I don’t know why but I feel quite resentful to take on a mortgage in a much larger house for them to move in, and if one moves in the other will be pissed the other didn’t, and both together, no way.

at least my mum would be bringing capital, his mum wouldn’t be putting anything into the house

That was in this hypothetical scenario whereby both move in…

in that hypothetical and hellish situation in which we were looking to move both of our mothers in, at least the cost of upsizing (considerably) would be covered in part by my mothers bringing of capital, where as my MIL wouldn’t be bribing a penny to make this move to a mansion with two separate granny annexes possibles

i am opposed to both. I suppose with my mother in moderately more open to her as ‘better the devil you know’

but it’s like more recent posters have said people seriously underestimate the cost and the toll of caring, and it is impossible to do and work full time which is something that I need to do for my own retirement as well as the short to medium future

I think some posters underestimate the reality of having elderly parents in their home / an annexe, and some are overly optimistic about the prospect of care provided for or paid for by a local authority.

As my dm (who I loved dearly) became increasingly frail, my ddad needed respite so dm came to stay one week every month. She was an entirely reasonable person, could wash/dress/ feed herself and wouldn't intend to be a bother. However... I was on constant call - helping her turn on the shower, finding dry towels because she sprayed the shower in the wrong dierection, work the microwave, change the channel on the blaringly loud TV, doing laundry, opening bottles of pills, getting medication out of blister packs, reading the small print on things, being available for general chit-chat (endless). I ran my own business from home and it became close to impossible at times.

My cousin built an annexe for her Mum, but ended up as defacto full time carer for a very sick woman with dementia - very much to the detriment of her own young children and her own mental and physical health. Building an annexe for a benign, slightly aging parent seemed like a good idea but no-one could predict the rapid advancement of dementia / violence / incontinence.

Where was social care in these situations? non-existant. Because there was some kind of 'available' family suport, they were pretty low down on extremely pressurised LA budgets and issues with shortages of staff. It took simultaneous medical crises for dm and ddad to get any kind of real help.

In 2022, MIL had a fall while dh was visiting. Because he was in the house at the time, he became her full time carer during weekdays, with SILs doing it at weekends. That was everything - personal care, toiletting, showering, feeding etc. MIL lived 2 hours from our house so dh and I only saw each other at weekends. Again, it was low on social care priorities because dh was there (albeit at breaking point).

I suppose what I'm saying is that even with the best will in the world, the practicalities of caring for elderly parents can't be predicted. Whatever the situation is now, you need to be thinking and planning two steps ahead, and contemplating a whole variety of scenarios.

Yes its really hard. My mother is like another child. We do what we can. Your right people dont realise the care involved..

people live much longer these days and often have more complex health needs such as dementia that often cannot realistically be managed at home. If you merge households then it is very, very difficult and more complex to access care home places or funding for carers to visit at home. I think it's important to be clear-eyed about this. The noble aim of caring for parents at home sometimes just doesn't work in reality

That is the single smartest post I have read on this subject. I'm going to memorise it for future use.

I think some posters underestimate the reality of having elderly parents in their home / an annexe, and some are overly optimistic about the prospect of care provided for or paid for by a local authority.

I think so too. While I could imagine my mum or MIL living close to us, I really don’t see myself becoming a full time carer.

In 2022, MIL had a fall while dh was visiting. Because he was in the house at the time, he became her full time carer during weekdays

So just because he was there at the time of her fall he was expected to basically just remain there more or less permanently? That sounds crazy.
What about his job and his own family? How long did he have to do it for?

These are all really good points.

@Wigglytuff123

it’s like more recent posters have said people seriously underestimate the cost and the toll of caring, and it is impossible to do and work full time which is something that I need to do for my own retirement as well as the short to medium future

Please will you give this a rest.

Myself and one other relative coordinated the care of three wheelchair bound adults simultaneously. At that time I had a baby, was working and doing a degree.

It would have been easier if they had lived in the same house as driving between and managing multiple households sucked up time.

You outsource the care. You don’t do it yourself. You have to work. End of story.

You can try and find a work around where they are living on site or close by but aren’t considered part of your household to save money..

But even at that if they become so decrepit that they need to move in it will be about 18months max until they either die or need to go into a care home for their own safety.

Seriously you need to stop building this up into an absolute drama because you are so emotionally against it.

Your mothers are going to age, become ill/unfirm and will die. That is a fact.

You need to get practical not emotional. Think about the legalities relative to estate management, power of attorney etc. Think about how you are going to shovel the shit and work out a long term plan.

When they have dementia, cancer, anything serious enough to warrant moving in they have the stuffing knocked out of them and the battle axe is gone there is too much else to deal with. Even if they have just become frail… it’s a lot.

Stop throwing the toys out of the pram and get real about what you need to do. The mess is going to land as your door no matter what you do if there is no other family available.

@venusandmars

I agree with everything you have said 2000%

Especially
Whatever the situation is now, you need to be thinking and planning two steps ahead, and contemplating a whole variety of scenarios.

OP and DH, I feel should as a minimum help her mother sort out her affairs/property and shift her closer (keeping her in her own individual property) because otherwise it’s super difficult when she has issues.

It would make sense to have a bigger property for their family anyway leaving the option open to have space.

Whether that space is used for an ailing relative depends on what the issue is, the availability of social care in the area, finance available and so forth.

The best case scenario is to have them in their own property to be able to access maximum care packages, which you then supplement with your care (some extra personal care, toileting, feeding, shopping, washing etc). It is the fastest way of getting them into a home as they are made a priority over others.

However, if for example they are diagnosed with terminal cancer they may want to move in prior to hospice care, or if they keep having falls but are otherwise alright they may need some support.

The main thing is to have the discussions, work out the legalities by speaking to CAB and a solicitor. Sort OP’s Mum and move to have space for the nuclear family with an eye to having room for the mother/s if needs be in some capacity.

A crystal ball would be great, but in its absence common sense, legal advice and good planning is needed.

What are you talking about?

why will it be 18 months before they die? How did you get this figure? My grandmother lived with us for the best part of 10 years, and then passed away in a hospital.

there are numerous other posters who have affirmed how challenging it can be to care for someone. I’ve literally witnessed this. As my grandmother moved in the LA would not provide any care or any support when it became too much.

my point is I don’t really want to live with them at any point, as it is not financially viable. I don’t understand why you seem to think it is? for instance your older suggestion of buying them both a house next door?

@Wigglytuff123

You don’t move them in until it is the absolute last case scenario.

I am basing the circa 18months figure on what I’ve experienced with my own relatives and working in and around care homes. Usually from the point there is a major health crisis precipitating 5 calls a day, meals/personal care and overnight monitoring it is about 12-24 months before the individual needs to go into a full time care home or die.

What state was your grandmother in whenever she moved in with you?

Caring is hugely challenging, I have been through it with multiple people.

As myself and others have said the ideal solution is to have them in their own properties to access a maximum care package.

However, there may be a time whenever they have that and it is insufficient but they are still not eligible to get a place in a home. You need to assess how you would cope in this circumstance, how viable it would be for you to work managing potentially 3 households and driving between, duplicating errands and so forth. To assess how much you could see them and yourselves suffering.

For instance we had one relative with dementia, six months prior to finally getting a care home place they couldn’t remember if they had been to the toilet, so we were called every half hour between 10pm and 2-3am (after the carers had left), to drive and take them to the toilet. It drove us virtually mad and was exhausting. Of course we were also caring for another relative (as you could be), who lived at a different address and was getting bathroom renovations and stairlift put in, so we had to be there to breakfast them and let the builders in at 7.30/8am… even after 4 hours sleep for weeks on end. Then the falls in the night when they end up with urine burning their entire backside, or crack their head open after falling down the stairs…. That sort of thing.

I’m not saying move them in, but leave the option of some space open or look at moving somewhere where there are cheaper options such as a flat or bungalow available to buy (your Mum) or rent (DH’s Mum) nearby.

Because having to care for multiple elderly potentially at the same time is a difficult existence.

firstly, a care home for asian culture is simply a no go… so MIL going there is out of the question.

secondly, so when that relative did move in and you were called every hour to go to the loo, how did you manage with work (obviously that would be easier than driving to assist them, but still) you’re simultaneously saying how exhausting it was yet that I’m exaggerating by saying it’s exhausting? I don’t understand the logic here.

my grandmother was 80 when she moved in, whether you consider that young or not, I don’t know. My mum had to pay for adjustments to the house, the LA refused and they even tried to get her to put in and pay for herself stair lifts.

so what you’re argument is that I should move to somewhere cheaper (aka a shithole as the ‘cheap’ areas in the city I live are not particularly nice and substantially further away from my children’s schools and my place of work) so I can source separate properties for my mother and my MIL? I appreciate the sentiment that caring for 2 elderly people at once is v difficult but it again hardly seems viable for me?

and again there’s that ‘difficult existence’ thing but it’s dramatic if I say caring for someone is difficult… got me again I’m afraid, don’t understand that logic

@Wigglytuff123

If it gets to the point where they require palliative care, specific pain medication, lifted in a hoist or it is physically unsafe to lift them you may not have a choice, culture or not.

I did not say our relatives moved in, one person was my mother who lived with my father. Then two elderlies in separate homes. I have said repeatedly that it is very difficult to cope with caring for someone at distance, particularly whenever you have other commitments. Ideally at the point where it became critical over the sixth month period when we had three people to care for I wish we hadn’t had four households to ping pong between. But the elders refused to move and they would have compromised my mother’s care.

We just had to get on with it. Essentially alternating who slept decently from night to night between us, who would do the early or night shift etc. My father was retired but he was preoccupied with my Mum and provided childcare for me whenever DC were not plonked in nursery.

Generally when issues are severe there are 5 calls a day, breakfast/dress, lunch, mid afternoon, dinner, undress/bed. You rely a lot on the carers being reliable… some are brilliant, some crap. If you have a run of good carers mostly you can get on. Otherwise you may be called out of work or need to take sporadic days off. There is a lot of running to do and hospital appointments too usually. I would have to stay up until 2 quite frequently to get things done. All of this happens whether they are in the house with you or not.

My ultimate point is that it would have been better for us and my DC to have had the option to have them in the house because the distance to drive and having to keep on top of 4 lots of shopping/ultimates/paperwork (when you included our household too) was too much on top of work/parenting/housework/caring/admin such as social services meetings, attendance allowance forms, hospitals, all that jazz.

FYI everyone in our family had to pay for their own bathroom adaptations, stairlifts etc.

And you didn’t answer my question - what state was your grandmother in whenever she moved in with you?? Was she just old? Or did she have something actually wrong with her that necessitated her needing to move in to have full time support? I’m only suggesting you should ever move either of your relatives in if the latter applies and you are finding caring for them at distance to be too challenging or unworkable.

Your mother has two properties. Are you honestly telling me that she can’t afford to
a) buy a bungalow or flat near you
OR
b) to buy a bigger place with you that could be shared (if merging households) or converted into two separate properties (main house + annexe/flat, if wanting to maintain two residences).
Afterall she brings capital.

Your MIL can stay where she is, 15min away, unless there is any major problem. If you sort out some emergency space for your Mum it sorts the problem for her too. Hopefully will never be needed.

I think it’s dramatic for you to say it isn’t possible for you to work and care at the same time. And to put all of your energy into being emotive about this, rather than to sit down with your husband to work out a practical solution. As things stand it is unworkable, particularly with your Mum so far away.

Whether or not it is “viable”, whenever your parents get older and develop health problems whereby their capacity to handle their own care is diminished, the buck will stop with you and your husband.

It certainly wasn’t viable for me. But the problems still presented themselves and I still had to do something to deal with them.

i’m from indonesia (south east asian) we have similar culture with south asian. We have to take care of our elderly. Its just already deeply engrained.

my DH is indonesian aswell and the only child. So after his father passed my MIL stay with us. I know this how supposed to be and i’m fine with it. But no why i’m taking care of my MIL. She does everything herself. She even does the cooking now because she is better cook than me. For asians people mother always comes first OP. My husband is a great husband. He even taking care my eldery mum back home because she cant come here so my husband makes sure my mom good and supported financially. For us its impossible to not taking a good care of your parents and let your parents live alone. But your husband need to draw clear boundary for his mum. Sorry OP if you cant stand it just divorce it. Because no point he will bring his mum to your house because its his duty to do so.

His mother already lives alone after being left by her husband.

i really really dislike this sense of cultural superiority sorry, fact is in a lot of south Asian households the mother moves in but it’s not the husband that does anything it’s the wife. I hardly call that taking good care of your parents (your in the general sense) it’s outsourcing it to your wife. Sorry this touches a nerve because it’s a huge beating stick used against other cultures that I’ve seen

it’s not that simple to ‘just divorce him’ we have a house and 2 kids

Its really hard isnt. This cultural difference. You wont understand how asian people does and why they do this and nor do we..m you might think this is very disturbing and stupid but as asian we can think you are heartless. I’m just stating the truth here. Its just a matter of difference.

i agree about cultural superiority i dislike it aswell. Thats why make sure not the wife do all the things. Like i said before my husband helps me with all the things. Everything its 50:50. But because i’m not working now and i have all the time in the house meanwhile he is not surely i do something more. I’m not gonna wait to do house chores just because i have to wait for him to helps me.

i didnt know you have kids. Its complicated things its not easy. But mix marriage its hard. Harder if you married an indian because they have really deep culture. I got many friends who mix married and all got their own problem about cultural differences.

i hope you have solution.

‘but as asian we can think you are heartless’

that love is your cultural superiority showing ironic you say you hate it

yours isn’t the only culture that takes care of your parents. I’m having to bit my tongue a lot here actually

Nope I would not be accepting that. He cannot make arbitrary decisions like that. Is he going to be giving up his job to look after them?

Surely as your mum is only 60 and MIL in 70s this is not going to be an issue for another 10 years or more and explain to your husband you cannot live with either of them but will support them to live in their own homes. Sounds like your mum will be ok as she has money/property. I would not get a bigger property if your husband feels you can fill it with elderly parents.

I don't think you are heartless, OP, and I am Asian! Especially as your MIL only lives 10 minutes away and is only 60. It's difficult all around, especially in this country. Much easier in Asia.

Have you spoken further with your husband after he dropped this bombshell?

I don't think you're heartless. I'd divorce before i let what he wants to happen, happen.

I have a friend who refused to live with her awful MIl. They are empty nesters, so her DH moved in with the MIL and does all the carework as he WFH. They are still married, but he goes back and forth ( the two houses are close).

Which I don't think is a bad compromise. Everyone is reasonably happy. A similar arrangement might work for you if your MIL is so close.

One generation ago my culture was the same @Femme2804 in regards to care being provided almost entirely in the home for the elderly, but it was women, almost always women who did the caring.

I don’t view the last generation who did it as culturally superior. There was a lot of control, manipulation and undue obligation for a lot of women to put a tight control on the social structure to make sure that caring obligation was fulfilled. I suspect but obviously I cannot say for sure that it is the same in Asian culture. There were other cultural mistreatments of women significantly embedded into the culture too. Mother and baby homes, victim blaming for sexual violence etc.

As I said upthread our male PM recently lamented how sad it was times had changed in regard to care for the elderly. He never would have done it. He is absolutely not the type.

It’s the other way around MIL is 60 and my mum is 70 and pretty active, like travels the world active.

i think with dh mum, it’s a mental thing that she thinks she’s elderly now, she frequently says she’s not got long left to live because of how hold, but when I’d say well my dad actually has cancer so in terms of caring surely that need comes first, she’d shrug and say well you married into this family, we come first (all translated through dh due to language). She has very minor health conditions, eczema and borderline diabetes but blows it up like she’s got 4 months left to live. So point is technically it should be 10 even 20 years away BUT for her, she has the expectation and it has been life long (dh as a child walked around with holes in his shoes because she wouldn’t get a job and her husband was off with his mistress, she made him get an evening job at 14 to start paying for her and he’d work 5-11pm after school in a restaurant) that someone should take care of her

Good grief I am almost 64 and still very active. My husband is part Asian but there was never an assumption my MIL should live with us. She had severe dementia and we both worked so it was never going to happen. Like your MIL she didn't have any money or property so was dependent on council funded assisted living then a dementia friendly nursing home but she did not move into either of those until her 80s. Personally I would not consider a bigger house so there is no way she can move in. You also need a discussion with your DH to say you cannot entertain living with her. It may be the culture to have elderly parents living with children in her home country but not over here. Everyone I know who has tried it regretted it and moved them back out again.

My grandmother had very minor conditions when she moved in, she grew increasingly sedentary as she started to refuse to do anything for herself when she moved in and this over the long term created health problems.

my mother had to have emergency surgery and she was caring for my grandmother and the LA refused to send carers or arrange a facility because my mother was the carer. My grandmother also refused to let my mum claim carers allowance or get a disability badge. No one would help my mother so she’d have to try and carry her up and down the stairs. Their relationship crumbled as the resentment grew and grew, they were very close before. Now in my circumstances I don’t have that closeness with either party. In fact I’m STILL the hypercritised one and the sibling is the golden child that can do no wrong but wouldn’t lift a finger to help that is for sure.

with regards to the buck stopping with dh and I… how can it? What happens for people with no children then? If there is care in place for them then there will be care in place for our parents.