Having to do prayers on Christmas Day

[Fretfulmum]

DH is Christian and he and his family are quite religious- goes to church weekly etc. I’m not Christian and I don’t attend church or do anything religious, I’m pretty much an atheist. We hosted DH’s parents and siblings and partners today. His parents wanted to do prayers before Christmas lunch. I told DH I’m not happy about having to do it but just let them get on with it whilst I sat there. In the evening, they wanted to do more. I’d had enough and I left the room without saying anything and let them crack on with it. Half way through the DC (toddlers) realised I wasn’t there and left the room to see where I was so they missed some of it. DH was so angry with me that I didn’t partake as it was a “whole family unit” thing and it disrespected his whole family? Apparently I ruined the day and now he’s sleeping in the spare room. AIBU that’s it my house and if I don’t want to do religious prayers that I sit out and go into another room ?

I think you’re referring to ‘strong atheism’ here - which is an explicit rejection of the possibility of the existence any god(s). That’s one type of atheism that, I agree, is not evidence based. It’s also not very widely believed - even the likes of Richard Dawkins shy away from it.

Most atheists simply do not believe in a god, as opposed to actively rejecting the possibility.

I did not know that you could till someone pointed it out. Now I have.

OP massive drip feeding here! You should not have to participate in or even sit silently through anything that you dont want to, in your house or anyone else's. But you handled it badly, because you did a vanishing act which unsettled your toddlers and undermined their participation. You knew the prayers were starting because you left the room to let them "crack on" and although your house has multiple rooms and you don't announce your departure from a room, in this case you should have done because you knew you were leaving deliberately. "It's lovely to share Christmas with you but I'll leave you to pray, I'm going to lie down/ wash the dishes/ etc DCs Mummy's going to be in x room, but you stay and have prayers with Granny/Daddy etc". If DH can't be honest with his parents about the faith practice in your house you shouldn't be expected to collude with him misleading them.

But she has already made clear to all of them that she is not a Christian, and they still get annoyed or angry if she doesn’t pray. Ultimately, they are not tolerant people and I don’t think choosing the least confrontational way of avoiding participation is necessarily wrong, not least at a family get-together.

No doubt if the OP had expressed that she didn’t want to actively join in, and a DH or his family got annoyed, posters would be asking “could you not have just quietly taken yourself into another room before they got started?”

What evidence do you have that the tens of thousands of other gods and religions that you've rejected aren't the right one?

Atheists just go one further.

I'll add those that make extraordinary claims must supply extraordinary evidence.

The problem of evil. That's my proof.

Tbf, that applies to one particular God, not all Gods.

I do agree though. I don’t think that the existence of a benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent god is compatible with the world we live in and am wholly unconvinced by the attempts to rationalize it.

I’d assume that most (of not all?) Christians are agnostic. Gnosticism doesn’t seem to be compatible with the Christianity (not least, the concept of faith).

As an atheist, I don’t reject the concept of something unseen. We could be brains in jars. We could be a complex computer program. The world might have been created in 6 days. I can’t disprove all sorts of things. I reject the concept of worship. No being is worthy of my worship, even if that being has something to do with my existence. Every sentient mind is just as important as any other.

Gnosticism refers to the practice of the spiritual perception of reality rather than material reality. It's the basis of aestheticism in the sense of subduing the body to the spirit and is also the source - eventually - of a lot of misogyny surrounding women since women are very clearly of earth. To be agnostic is to be in two minds or unsure and open to opinion on whether God exists.

That is not what I would call agnosticism. Agnosticism is believing that the existence or not of a god is unknowable. Most atheists are agnostic.

Most atheists are agnostic.

Eh? They are two different things. Atheist is anti-theist. It actively rejects the concept of the existence of a deity altogether.

However, a lot of people are agnostic rather than atheist. Personally I do not believe in any sort of god/higher power or the possibility of it. I'm not agnostic, I'm fully atheist. And until someone can prove me wrong I will remain an atheist. However, I also don't believe anyone can ever prove me wrong.

Agnosticism just means you don’t know if there is a God (or gods)/consider it unknowable. You can be an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist.

A gnostic atheist believes with certainty that there is no higher power. Which appears to be how you e described yourself.

That is one, very narrow definition of atheism. You can insist it’s the correct definition, if you like, but it isn’t consistent with the every day use (as in, the dictionary definition) or many philosophical attempts to define it.

Its one of the problems with discussing atheism and agnosticism, the words mean different things to different people.

@Grammarnut I don’t want to celebrate any of my religious festivals further. I am quite happy with the little that we do with food which celebrates the culture. I am not religious and have no desire to worship or celebrate deities.

@thankyouforthedayz I handled it in the best way possible. If I had made an announcement it would be 10 x worse with likely questioning and they definitely would say I ruined Christmas!

I’ve spoken at some length with DH today and he has apologised but I’m not so sure he accepts that he is leading a “double religious life.” Obviously I didn’t word it that way. I wonder if he can’t accept that he is not as religious as he was and that he’s much less religious than his family. Maybe he’s ashamed of it as his parents have form for talking down about others who are not so religious and they wouldn’t understand at all why one wouldn’t want to worship. I’d say it’s a very toxic part of his upbringing but DH probably wouldn’t agree.

The only embarrassing person here is you.

Glad he’s apologized, OP. Hopefully he can find a way to better navigate this in the future.

War, disease.. is the result of MEN not God.

@Grammarnut

"NB Renaming Christmas has been suggested and every time has been greeted with disapprobation even by those who do not see it as a religious festival. I think doing that would mean we would consign to the dustbin the last festival we have left in this country, for we hardly celebrate Easter much and Whitsun has gone down the pan. About time we revived them all instead, perhaps."

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In order to revive or even keep the Christian festivals of Christmas, Easter and Whitsun the country would need to become more Christian when the reality is that it is becoming less Christian.

That is all perfectly fine and people are absolutely entitled to not identify as Christian. However let's at least be honest about this and say that for the majority Christmas is a two day bank holiday with booze, food and gifts with nothing to do with Christianity- so let's describe it as such - Year End Festival perhaps?

Or alternatively get rid of it altogether and give those of faith the necessary additional leave to celebrate Christmas, Eid or Winter Solstice. So those that want to celebrate their religious festivals can do so and everyone else can just crack on.

@secular37

"disease.. is the result of MEN not God."

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Disease????

If God exists, then all evil is the result of him.

He is, allegedly, our all-knowing, all-powerful creator.

When he made the universe, he did so knowing every single decision that every human being would ever make. If he wanted any given human to make a different decision, at any time, he would have made them (or the external conditions around them) differently.

He chose to cause everything that ever happened, exactly as it happened, despite having unlimited power to create different outcomes.

The reason not to do just give people holiday time for the days they want to celebrate is that it causes societal disintegration. Diversity does not result in a stable nation or country. We need to celebrate things together, know and understand our common history, invest in our historical community and require others who wish to be here to join the ship, not boat off on their own. Your plan means destruction, which is the end of a house that will become divided against itself. A stable and happy world for our children depends on us maintaining our community, which relies on common heritage and culture, including Christmas.

@SpecialCharacters

He gave man free will.

I think it's a bit sad.

I agree that no one should impose their beliefs on others.

But from the OP,

Your children do not attend Church..maybe on the odd occasion but not weekly.

You do not pray at home.

...and yet the people are telling the OP that her DH is being unfair. The OP's DH is not really practicing his Christian faith within his family home. It goes both ways.

OP, I understand your concerns but you chose to marry a devout Christian and your DH chose to marry an atheist. It was doomed from the start. I would never ever date someone who had a different faith to me (unless they were an agnostic). But it causes big issues... if it's not within the marriage, it's the outside family members. I hate to say it. But maybe you need to reconsider this relationship.

So some Christians say, but (1) the Bible doesn’t, and (2) it is incompatible with God being an omniscient, omnipotent creator.