Was I right to pull him out of the Nativity?

[cantsleepinbed]

DS is five and in year one. The school have referred him for an ASD assessment that we have in January.

He was really scared about doing the Nativity and said he doesn't like people looking at him. I spoke to the school and they said they'd put him at the back with the older children so people couldn't see him.

He seemed happy with that until the day of the Nativity. He refused to go to School. The only way I could get him there was by telling him he didn't have to do it all. Spoke to the school when we got there. All fine. They let him sit in the older class who weren't doing the Nativity.

DS loved going in the older class. Perfectly happy.

But I've since had comments from a relative who thinks I made a mistake and that DS needed to just get on with it. That I'm othering him. He'll end up with no friends as he'll be forgotten, overlooked, etc. If he keeps missing all the stuff the other kids are doing. He'll be different and that will exclude and isolate him.

I do undstand their point but also, I didn't want DS to be unhappy and I couldn't bloody get him to school. What was I supposed to do?

Other things include not sitting with his class when they went to the panto as he was petrified so had to sit at the back with his favourite teacher. Won't do sports day, etc.

Do keep in mind Year 2 could be a big jump. My daughter struggled when moving to Year 2 primarily because she didn’t have her favourite teacher who she ‘loved’ anymore. The school said that the number of LSAs go down in year 2 and that 1-1 support goes down dramtically and they are expected to be much more independent. Speak to the school in detail on how they plan to transition your child to be more independent as he progresses to different year groups.

Trust me your child already has incredible resilience. He’s dealing with a plethora of issues that NTs cannot imagine.

Listening, validating, responding and advocating are teaching him that he is valued, that his struggles are real and that he is worthy of consideration, love and respect. And that’s how you build up good self esteem and resilience.

My ds is 15 now, beyond nativity plays, and a member of the school debating team. He’s doing really well, because he can advocate for his needs and he recognises when he needs to pace himself so that he doesn’t burn out.

Speak to the school to ensure your child continues to be adequately supported as he progresses through different year groups.

The psychological effect?

He’s FIVE!

FFS, here we have the twatty response of the day winner.

@cantsleepinbed

you absolutely did the right thing! He’s 5 years old and at the beginning of his school journey. He’ll still be at the stage where he’s exhausted by this time of year. Even a NT child can struggle with all this.

At 5 they don’t think rationally at all and even without neuro divergence it’s hard for them to understand how to overcome their fears - rational or irrational

my little boy has just set off to college on his 18th birthday. 🎁 🥳 but at 8 years old he had a big burns accident and we spent a feee weeks in hospital together. The one thing I was grateful for was that he was at an age old enough to understand how there were some things he needed to do to get better even though they hurt. many child burns victims are very little/toddlers and it’s a whole other level to deal with.

Even then, I’ll never forget the first time we had to get him into a bath, he was beyond terrified. Being able to reason with him was critical. The trust he had in us then, the nurses and his mum was what got us through to him, and got the very necessary job done.

if your little boy is ND, you’re going to come us against many challenges that will take more effort to navigate. by listening to him now and showing him that he’s got support from you and is safe, you’ll build a better relationship with him to put in foundations to deal with the challenges to come. This is a path you’re both on, learning to do this together - hand in hand- will help him find the strength to make progress when it matters.

if your relative pipes up again, remind them that you’re the boys parent, you know him and more importantly HES FIVE FFS, and he needs a bit of slack.

is this your mother saying this?

I posted on this yesterday OP saying you did the absolutely right thing and I want to elaborate further with my autistic ds now 13.

Throughout primary he managed a short time in one play, he hated sports days and discos as well as dress up days. Hated it all. I never forced it.

he’s now in mainstream secondary with an ehcp and they have support him well. He’s attended 2 discos there, he’s performing in a concert next week and he goes on trips happily. He’s become more confident and happy to do this - but it would also be fine if he didn’t.

my point being as others have suggested, he does not need to be forced to the play at this age or any age in fact. Imo forcing it makes them hate it more.

I loathe the, 'we all have to do things we don't want to do' attitude. I had that drummed into me as a child. I have been an adult for 30 plus years now and every day I still enjoy the autonomy of adulthood and the discovery that, actually, you have a choice.
I hated the lack of autonomy as a child. Couldn't wait for adulthood and when I got there (at the earliest point I could), I found such joy in living my life at my own pace, not somebody else's.

Even work has a degree of choice in it far greater than what you have as a child.
For some children, the oft- repeated, if well-meaning mantra, results in adults who don't recognise how much control they have over their own life. Adults, NT included, who have no idea how to advocate for themselves because they've been taught that it isn't OK to say 'no, thank you'.

The amount of autistic children who end us as school refusers is really high. I'm sure forcing children into situations they can't cope with adds to this. No issue between you and the school so it's no isssue and the relative needs to keep their nose out. Yes autistic children need support to try new things and not restrict their world to the point they end up isolated and unwell but that's not whats happening here. Plus how on earth do you force a 5 year old to do a performance? Shove them on stage until they have a meltdown? Stand behind and operate them like a puppet? Now that would the socially difficult thing

Hi, I wondered when I took my daughter to her first fireworks display (when she was about 3) whether she was on the autistic spectrum. It was such sensory overload we had to leave the minute it started and the tears were only just gone by the time we got home and played a quiet spelling game together… roll on 3 years and she had a big part in the nativity as Angel Gabriel and she loved it - delivered her lines with more confidence than those who do acting clubs… she can still surprise me from time to time with how literal she is though (at 7, I had to explain that having a sweet tooth was an expression not actually that I have one particular tooth!), what I am saying is that I do think all children have their moments and we need to relate to their needs in the moment to HELP them build resilience/coping strategies etc. You did the right thing for your son in that moment. This year my DD was offered a small ‘role’ in her new school’s nativity and after auditioning and being offered the part, she declined it, she doesn’t feel that confident as it’s a much bigger school and she just wanted to sing in the main group - that’s fine too! Great that she stood up for herself with the teachers…

@Mamma4573 Totally this!

Absolutely.

I have an autistic DD who had to be carried, sobbing, into nursery and preschool and school. Peeled off me by a member of staff at the door, pretty much every time. The crying lessened as she got older, because she realised people would stare at her if she was visibly upset or otherwise behaving differently to the other children so she literally gave up once we were within sight of the school gates and masked like hell to get through the day. But I still had to pick her up and drag her out of the house almost every morning.

This went on until she was 11, Year 6. She became too big to actually pick up and wrestle out of the house against her will. And by that age it felt abusive, in a way that it hadn't when she was a toddler and young child. So we had to stop.

By this point the damage was fully done, of course. She is 13 now and has hardly attended school since then. She just can't, it's too traumatic for her, the complete loss of autonomy causes such extreme anxiety that she has an uncontrollable meltdown or shutdown response.

If I could turn back time, I would fight and fight for school to listen to me about her additional needs (diagnosed at 10, but very clear to anyone who actually knows about autism in girls since she was in preschool). I would have made them recognise that, sometimes, she needed reasonable accommodations. And maybe, knowing that she wouldn't be continually pushed WAY beyond her coping abilities, she would have felt more confident and comfortable going into school and not required physical force to make it happen. (Before anyone asks, yes of course we tried bribery and punishment and reasoning with her - all of them utterly failed and actually made it worse.)

So the wide-eyed response of, 'they're five, they don't get a choice, you just pick them up and drag them in' is inappropriate and unhelpful with a ND child. So, SO much more thought and work needs to go into resolving the situation.

I'm autistic and I have 2 autistic children. I think it depends on a few things. What other things are you putting in place? What is your child like?
My eldest son I know if he doesn't want to do something not to force him, he'll do other things and will only say he doesn't want to do something if he really doesn't want to do it. Whereas my younger son I know I have to force him to do things; because if I don't and I let him miss the Nativity, sports day etc once it's over he'll go into meltdown about the fact he missed out and tells me afterwards that I need to make him do the things.
But with both I would never allow them to miss everything that involves being with their classmates doing stuff that isn't schoolwork. I have seen it with my friends autistic son who couldn't cope with things like that eventually by year 1 or 2 kids wouldn't even play with him at lunchtime so they had to really integrate him back into the school group.
Equally there needs to be a balance so maybe "you said you'd be okay sitting at the back, but I know that's difficult shall we tell the teacher you need to sit by me/her, this year?" That worked for my youngest when he was 5 and his friend did that right up until year 6. That way he's still taking part he's not missing out, he can watch his friends, and that may give him a little push to try it himself next time.

Dyslexic children absolutely can catch up with their peers if taught correctly - my son has. And he's autistic as well and is learning that things can change without notice and he's learning to cope with that too. There are also therapies that a child with anxiety can access in just the same way as adult work anxiety can access them.
As an adult with autism myself I'm glad my parents didn't Molly coddle me or I wouldn't be able to be a productive member of society!

I'm not sure why you're equating that to a wheelchair user not being able to walk?

100% the right thing. The nativity is not the be all and end all. And what would he have got out of it other than unhappiness.

There's stuff asd kids have to manage in order to get an education. This isn't one of them.

Ignore people who don't know what they're talking about.

There are also therapies that a child with anxiety can access in just the same way as adult work anxiety can access them.

Does that ‘therapy’ involve throwing them into the middle of the situation they have extreme anxiety about and expecting them to cope?

Don’t listen to them. If I had my time again I’d request my eldest didn’t take part in these things. Caused so much upset/embarrassment. Everyone looking as he was the only one not in outfit. Hiding his head in his hands etc. hindsight is wonderful

My son is also waiting for his ASD assessment. If it were me, I’d sit down with him, discuss the things he doesn’t like to take part in and compromise on one so he can develop those sets of skills. Hopefully he will feel supported and more confident having done something he is a little unsure of.

Tell this relative to butt out. None of their business. You are protecting your very young child from stress and upset, you are a great mum !!

You absolutely did the right thing.

If it helps for all those who insist you need to make him to stuff just to "build resilience" my NT daughter is in our local panto, for the past three years we offered our youngest who is autistic the chance to join. We know she would love it as her dance shows are a real highlight for her. But she's refused as she doesn't want everyone to look at her.

We just say OK and offer again the next year. This year she chose to audition but not have a spot. She's just told us next year she will be in it as long as she doesn't have any lines.
She just needed time to process it on her own.

As you go further down this road OP you'll find a lot of NT people telling you what you should do to force him to fit in, what they really mean is they don't want to have to change anything to make life easier for him.

Your DS sounds like a typical autistic child and sometimes they need to have adjustments made. People who don’t have autistic children, autism themselves or children with additional needs often don’t understand how some activities can cause huge anxiety. It’s always worth trying but never worth a battle that really causes probables.

I think children should always been encouraged to overcome their fears, otherwise they never learn that they can. This however is different to forcing them to do something that they really, really do not want to do. No-one was in your situation but if you were there and the emotion was taken out of it, would things have gone differently?

You were quite right, there’s plenty of time for him to learn whatever social skills he needs. I remember DS2’s reception teacher telling me if he didn’t learn to focus and “be good” in class he wouldn’t be allowed to be in the nativity play “and think how disappointed his grandparents will be”. Bitch. I said good, less stress all round.

I think you did the right thing. I was forced into doing things when in school such as violin solos and singing which I hated and it made me less confident and fear doing those things because I felt I had no choice. Let him come around to the idea on his own. He might have forgotten about it by the time the next one comes around and want to give it a try. What he won’t forget, is being forced to do it and crying on stage in front of everyone.

Often people who make comments like your relative don’t get ASD. The sensory overload for ASD kids can be immense at something like that. A good school will accolade and adapt. DS frequently has to sit outside the classroom with his TA as being in there is too much for him. He gets the work done better outside and he’s in the room when he can be, we are slowly building up to him being in the room more often but the choices are he works with his TA outside or he goes into the classroom, gets overwhelmed and runs and hides in the cloakroom and doesn’t do the work at all.

At 5 he doesn’t have the coping strategies yet and hopefully, with the right support, he will get better when he’s older. DS’s friend didn’t do the nativity last year for similar reasons as your DS but he did it this year and did well so next year may be different.