The existence of Father Christmas is a lie that children shouldn’t be told

[maybein2022]

I’ve noticed on social media recently that a LOT of people are posting about not allowing their children to believe in Father Christmas. The rationale being they don’t lie to their children about other things, and it doesn’t sit comfortably with them to create this big ‘lie’. Some talk about how St Nicholas was a real person, some talk about how other children believe in the magic so they shouldn’t spoil it for them etc.

My eldest two are way past believing but it never occurred to me that it was anything more than a harmless story/magic that they would grow out of believing. But I now have a baby/toddler too (too young to understand this year) and wondering if we do the whole thing again.

We’ve always done stockings from FC as small, inexpensive gifts, and always done bigger under the tree gifts from us. A lot of the issue comes with of course not all children will get any gifts at all, and therefore it’s awful if they believe in FC and are disappointed or think they’ve been ‘bad’ (kids living in poverty with no parental money to buy anything, kids living with domestic violence etc). Also the idea that FC brings some kids big gifts and some just small.

So: (I am still on the fence anyway about it all)

YANBU: It’s fine, FC is a magical thing that it’s fine for kids to believe in.
YABU: A lie is a lie, kids shouldn’t believe in FC.

If you want to murder innocence, this is how to go about doing so.
It's this sort of hysteria that is partly why we decided to largely opt out of it.

We've got friends who do no Santa, friends who play along with Santa but don't push it, friends who do a little bit of Santa with younger children (carrots, letters etc) but don't try to prevent their children realising the truth as they get older. All of us seem to perfectly understand that we've all chosen different things without judgement and we all tell our children different families have different traditions.

Then you have a group of parents who are hysterical about Santa. They're the ones pushing the idea of a literal Santa in the house from a young age, who think Christmas is ruined if children don't think Santa is an actual person, that the "magic" is ruined, innocence will be murdered and other ridiculous hyperbole. They're the ones devastated when questions are asked and come up with ever obscure ways to try and prove to their doubting child that Santa is real, all in the name of "magic".Parents like this are part of the reason we chose to be very minimal with our Santa approach. It's turned Santa from a low key bit of fun into an institution that centres the parents and the parents' feelings.

Compelled? What have you been smoking? 🤣

It is a bit though.
The Santa message is pushed in society.
In stories
At school. Visits from Santa
On TV
From other children. Messages to Santa

I guess some children might just pick up on that and ask about Santa at home.
For some reason

It's entirely possible to encourage fantasy without pushing the Santa concept though.

Do you believe in god?

No

*Who's Santa?

A man with magical reindeer who travels in a magical sleigh and delivers presents to children.

Does he bring presents to all children?

What's the answer to that question?*

'Who's Santa?'

'What does Santa mean to you?'

Listen to their answer, add to the conversation when and if necessary. Asking open ended questions to allow them to think and have their opinion.

'Does he bring bring presents to all children?'

'No he doesn't, remember each family is different. But he can still bring some presents to this house if you would like him too?'

We'd then use this opportunity to explore Christmas and traditions in different parts of the world.

I'd expect this conversation to be completely different with a 4 or 8 year old.

It's a great way to teach critical thinking 🙂

A friend of mine with siblings quite a bit older felt properly lied to when she found out that her whole family knew except for her. So I think it is quite important to have a light touch to the whole thing, and make sure it’s not a huge big reveal that can feel like a betrayal of trust. Children can enjoy the magic of make believe without all the grown ups lying through their teeth.

They might start thinking critically about other things you've told them and then realise that parents don't always tell the truth and can be very effective at maintaining lies.

I realised that Father Christmas and fairies weren't real on the same day. I remember crying and feeling totally shocked. I was about 9, kids were innocent longer back then. I told mum I'd realised but mum and dad used to say that Father Christmas represents the Spirit of Christmas and I think that's true .

There’s a hell of a lot going on in the world that will /can mess up children’s lives. A few years of believing in Father Christmas, once a year, until they naturally twig its pretence isn’t one of them.

Which is great, of course 🙂

I presume those who "don't perpetrate the lie" don't do elf on the shelf?

Elf on the Shelf is an extra level of awfulness that I really don’t know why any parents have bought into, frankly.

Agreed.
A lot of folk moan how stressful Christmas is yet in the same breath ask for Elf ideas....the mind boggles.

As Father Christmas (as we know him) has only been around since the 1840s and Elf on a Shelf since 2004, maybe it's time for some more magical things to be invented so children can have the magic of Christmas.

Maybe a new thread is needed.

Glad to hear it 🙂 I think there's a great deal of crossover between arguments against the existence of god and the existence of santa. Logically speaking.

My eldest believed in santa for a little longer than god, but she came very close, even she was explaining why she didn't believe in god 😂

Bring your ideas here

We've got Father Christmas, we have Elf on the Shelf. But what new magical ideas can you bring to the table for children to believe in at Christmas? | Mumsnet

(I've gone for a magical woodcutter who brings a small tree to every household. )

As someone who last 'believed' in Santa 45 years ago, I think the problem is, like many things, it's become a big deal. My parents didn't fret over the 'lie' because this was a low-key thing. FC brought stocking presents only. Everything else was clearly labeled. We understood other kids in school might have more stuff than us (and vice-versa) and accepted this was how it was. My parents actually taught us to appreciate what we had, and that envy was an 'us' problem, not the problem of those who had more, and also not to boast about what we had or taunt others who didn't have that. Simple ideas which seem to have been lost in an age of everyone trying to shelter kids from difference/go into massive debt to give Kids stuff. Kids understand these concepts more than we give them credit for. We didn't expect a lot and we didn't complain that Joe Bloggs up the road got the toy we wanted because we weren't brought up to think like that.
What I got out of Christmas wasn't what we got, it was what we did. The time when my overworked and quite strict parents became fun people who played games.
FC is only a problem if you make a huge deal out of it, if you focus on connecting 'magic' with loads of presents/behaviour, or if you make a big drama about not doing it because of the lie.
As for the whole 'kids in Gaza', thing, it was the starving in Ethiopia when I was a kid. Since I went to a C of E primary school, I didn't think about why, on one day, they didn't get presents. I thought about why this god I heard so much about did bugger all about it. I never got much of an answer when I asked that question.

Some people really are fun sponges, aren't they?

I think this is what I’m really a bit fed up of with the whole FC thing - it isn’t just you, there are so many comments like this on the thread.

I don’t think deciding not to go down the Santa route is indicative of a lack of humour or enjoyment of life. I like Christmas and I’ll buy and receive presents, but I don’t think fun and joy and innocence begins and ends with Father Christmas. I honestly think some people believe that once children stop believing ‘the magic has gone’ or that it’s an end of childhood and I just don’t see it that way.

Viviennemary
**
I suppose culturally speaking the father Christmas story springs from St Nicholas who was a Christian saint, I've no idea if Muslim and Jewish parents get their children to believe in FC.

only know two Jewish families so no idea if they are representative. Both celebrate Hanakar and Christmas. One hosts a definite Christmas party every year 🤷‍♀️

@LolaSmiles

Really good post

I think this is what I’m really a bit fed up of with the whole FC thing - it isn’t just you, there are so many comments like this on the thread.

I don’t think deciding not to go down the Santa route is indicative of a lack of humour or enjoyment of life. I like Christmas and I’ll buy and receive presents, but I don’t think fun and joy and innocence begins and ends with Father Christmas. I honestly think some people believe that once children stop believing ‘the magic has gone’ or that it’s an end of childhood and I just don’t see it that way

Agree with this.

If Christmas is ruined because a child has realised an imaginary person is imaginary then that's a pretty damning reflection on Christmas.

I suspect that a lot of the 'magic is gone' style posts actually mean 'the magic is gone for me because part of Christmas for me is about ensuring my children respond a certain way, which gives me the feelings and reassurance I need'.

When a parent feels compelled to view different Christmas traditions as ruining innocence, destroying the magic of Christmas and are desperately trying to find ways to shut down a curious child, I strongly think that's the point where some inward reflection would be beneficial. After all, why as an adult are they that bothered about trying to convince their children an imaginary person is literally real that they're willing to keep pushing it?

Meanwhile there's a lot of parents who do Santa to different degrees who entirely accept that their children can enjoy the imaginary story, but don't feel the need to panic when their 4/5/6 year old asks questions.