The existence of Father Christmas is a lie that children shouldn’t be told

[maybein2022]

I’ve noticed on social media recently that a LOT of people are posting about not allowing their children to believe in Father Christmas. The rationale being they don’t lie to their children about other things, and it doesn’t sit comfortably with them to create this big ‘lie’. Some talk about how St Nicholas was a real person, some talk about how other children believe in the magic so they shouldn’t spoil it for them etc.

My eldest two are way past believing but it never occurred to me that it was anything more than a harmless story/magic that they would grow out of believing. But I now have a baby/toddler too (too young to understand this year) and wondering if we do the whole thing again.

We’ve always done stockings from FC as small, inexpensive gifts, and always done bigger under the tree gifts from us. A lot of the issue comes with of course not all children will get any gifts at all, and therefore it’s awful if they believe in FC and are disappointed or think they’ve been ‘bad’ (kids living in poverty with no parental money to buy anything, kids living with domestic violence etc). Also the idea that FC brings some kids big gifts and some just small.

So: (I am still on the fence anyway about it all)

YANBU: It’s fine, FC is a magical thing that it’s fine for kids to believe in.
YABU: A lie is a lie, kids shouldn’t believe in FC.

I have heard of kids wondering why some kids don't get much/anything, which, while not as specific, is the same sort of question.
I'm not sure how much young children are aware of the happenings in Gaza, as my child is a teen now, but if they have then they might well worry about them.

It’s a nice story, we do use stories all the time to learn things, to keep people safe. Not 100% what the useful learning is there but they do seem to enjoy that magic moment of He’s BEEEEN! It was the high point of my rather ropey childhood, certainly.

Personally I wouldn’t deprive them of it out of a scruple about not lying to kids. Sometimes we need to lie out of kindness as well - ‘Everything is going to be okay’ when don’t necessarily know that’s the case, but it’s a lot to exist in conditions of complete reality, some adults can’t cope, so it seems a great big ask of kids.

As to ‘what about the kids in Gaza,’ that’s an excellent question & if a child asked me that I certainly wouldn’t double down on the existence of Santa. As soon as mine questioned it I said ‘hmmm good point😉’ and then shortly thereafter that was that. They sussed it at 5 and were pleased they’d done a bit of effective detective work. In our case, social injustice/logistics blew the whole thing wide open. Maybe that’s the lesson, ask questions, don’t blindly accept what you’re told.

I”m presuming these parents don’t do the Tooth Fairy or Easter Bunny and any similar traditions with their children if it’s all about lying to them.
I think my childhood & my children’s would have been way poorer without these.
We travelled to Lapland with my parents & children & did the whole Santa thing. It was only 4/5 days but we all still say it was the best time (holiday) ever.

wiseoldcat
With the noisy or annoying toys, we're honest.
We generally don't buy lots of toys that have annoying repetitive sound effects or voices in the first place so that removes some of the challenges. On noise, we say we're not playing with that toy because it's noisy/annoying/I'm tired/it's time for quieter play and then they have a choice of many other activities.
Our DC also feel comfortable asking us to turn music down or change the song on our playlist if they're finding it noisy or annoying.

Do you just say no, it's too annoying? But it's something they really enjoy and could learn from, so why is your comfort more important than that?

It's a good time to teach them compromise @wiseoldcat

"I know you want to play with that right now, but mummy needs a break from the noise it makes. It's hurting my head. We can play with it again after lunch when my head has had a rest. I'd love to do a jigsaw/build Lego/read books with you. Which one do you choose?"

Or the other way to tackle it is that you know the toy is an annoying one, so you give them a time limit to play with it before they start playing.

Of course the children weren't always happy about this. But it's the route I took.

I suppose the question is, do you think this small number of kids who might have this fleeting thought, is reason to not let them believe in Santa?

I do remember as a kid having a fleeting thought that a friend didn't get as much as me for Christmas, for example. But it didn't make me question whether Santa was real or think that my parents were lying to me or anything like that. It was just 'oh that's weird' and then I moved on - as kids do.

Young children generally move past things quickly.

I just don't think it's damaging and I think adults project their adult minds onto children sometimes. Children's brains are different to ours - that's what allows them to believe in the first place. They're not as analytical and they don't dwell on things to the extent that adults do. Yes they are intelligent and inquisitive of course and we should give them credit for that. But their minds are not the same.

I just don't think it's as much of a concern as all these people claiming that it is a 'lie'. I think it's a special, magical thing.

I get it. But then you are saying quite brutally "My comfort is more important than your learning and enjoyment, and because I am the adult, what I say goes". I also understand why some parents would rather say it's broken and not highlight that dynamic.

I think by the time children are able to think more rationally and ask questions like why did he bring my friend a pony but I only got a jumper they are past the magic side anyway.

For little children the magic is what is going on inside their own home with the traditions made there. Mine loved Xmas Eve - reindeer food, new pjs (to look less tatty in Xmas morning photos 🤣), putting out mince pies and milk for santa
etc were the big bedtime build up of magic. And the stocking being on their bed on Xmas morning.
That first glimpse of the heap of gifts under the tree.

However it did occur to me how much we do brainwash little children. I work in a nursery and the last couple weeks it’s been reading Xmas stories, watching Xmas stuff, doing Xmas crafts, Xmas play. The adults around young ones really do make it fact in their heads at a young age.

We never lied about Santa at all, so it's not a question we'd be considering.
Different people make different choices for different reasons.

This is how we approach it, too.

He also fits nicely with our faith (Catholic) - in this house, Father Christmas brings gifts to all children, with no expectations about behaviour, because that's what God did when he sent Jesus to us as the first ever Christmas present. So as our children get older, we have the layer of 'when you were a child, you knew that Father Christmas did this - now you're bigger, you can see the similarity and draw the parallels with God'.

That's probably quite badly explained, but it works for us!

Nothing wrong with having a child believe in Father Christmas, the tooth fairy as well. Telling them once they don't believe about the life of St Nicholas I support.

Modest or not Christmas presents do not apply only to Father Christmas.

There are far worse things you can believe in, Brexit still being a good idea, for example.

It's just a bit of fantasy. I think that people have a tendency to over-think, over-analyse. I used to avidly watch professional wrestling on Saturday afternoons as a kid - I suspended my disbelief to imagine that all the feuds on it were real. We watch soap operas and talk about the characters like they're real. We've enjoyed watching magic and know that it's an illusion. Some people on here overthink stuff WAY too much.

Teaching that there's a time and place for noisy play/noise in general, and that we all sometimes have to be quieter for the benefit of others, is healthy and sensible!
Saying that we're having a wee break now, but can play with it again later and/or do something else a bit quieter just now, is teaching normal boundaries and cooperation. This can start early on.

I wouldn't use the word brutally.

You're teaching children that we're all part of the family and sometimes you get what you want, and sometimes I get what I want. As the adult, I am teaching you life long lessons child. Children don't pick this up by osmosis. They need to be taught. Being taught wth explanations is the very best way.

Surely with all your work in many schools and nurseries you know that adults have expectations of children's behaviour and that you have to stop playing with toys at some point in the day to move onto other things. Children sometimes don't want the other things over playing with their toys. It doesn't mean to say it shouldn't happen though. I don't think schools say toys are broken because they need children to go to assembly/have their flu nasal spray. They teach them. What the adults say goes.

Who's Santa?

A man with magical reindeer who travels in a magical sleigh and delivers presents to children.

Does he bring presents to all children?

What's the answer to that question?

I get it. But then you are saying quite brutally "My comfort is more important than your learning and enjoyment, and because I am the adult, what I say goes".
I also understand why some parents would rather say it's broken and not highlight that dynamic
No, what I'm teaching is that everyone in our house has a duty to be considerate to each other and that goes in all directions.

It doesn't do children any harm to learn that people can, and should, show consideration to others.

I'd rather own that the parent/child dynamic exists and use that dynamic to create a culture of consideration, than pretend that the parent/child dynamic doesn't exist and then make up silly lies about broken toys because I don't want to say no/would rather have an easy excuse to pull out.

Lying that the noisy toy is broken sends the message that the toy would be ok now, if it weren't broken. What the parents actually mean is that they don't want noisy toys out at that time. Why teach your children that noisy toys are to be expected all the time unless they're "broken"? Surely it's better to know there's a time and a place?

Can I just throw in here too that my now 26 year old nephew absolutely hated Father Christmas.

He was an anxious ball of nerves October onwards when the FC pics and images began coming out.

Sobbed every Christmas Eve aged 2-9.

Why? The thought of a complete stranger breaking into his house, creeping into his bedroom, wandering around his home in the dark to find a place to leave presents was such a scary concept for him. My brother had to put signs all over the house and in the garden telling FC he could pass by. Brother told nephew it wasn't true, but it was so drummed into him by society, nursery, school that he couldn't believe his family were telling the truth when everyone around him was peddling the FC myth.

I also knew of another child like this later on. I will never forget the look of terror on her face as she jumped into her mum's arms at a children's birthday party one December when she heard jingling sleigh bells coming towards the room we were in. Her mum thought it would be a Christmas free event as it was a birthday party, but no such luck.

I'm not sure that they are even asking. Do they ask when adverts come on with the plight of children in Ethiopia?

Everyone has different beliefs and therefore different magic happens for different children. Some of my family leave out a boot for the Krampus, some celebrate Hanukkah. It doesn't mean that we do.

My kids picked up Santa from other kids and TV. I have never lied to them about anything.
They were never comfortable with the “magic” of Christmas. It didn’t make logical sense to them and they didn’t like the idea of some random bloke leaving presents while they slept.
They were relieved to discover Santa is not real.

I also hate it when parents say “Santa’s watching” to young kids. I think it’s really shit parenting.

But what would you say if a child does ask?

stomps foot

But I wanted to go to Lapland and meet Santa. DS was just an excuse for me and DH and we unashamedly admit it. I LOVE snow.

(DS was 4.)

Such a sad, sad thread. I am so glad I am not bringing my children up now and that I managed to gift them that wonderful state of innocence and wonder. Encouraging fantasy is not lying, it is an escape in the mind to somewhere fantastic (for many children that will be somewhere better and safer than than the here and now) If you want to murder innocence, this is how to go about doing so.

You do realise that the idea of Father Christmas as we know him has only been around since the 1840s.

So quite a new concept really.

I am sure children will be able to enjoy Christmas and maintain their innocence without the idea of Father Christmas.

This is horseshit! It's only brainwashing if you don't allow it to be questioned 🤦‍♂️