Was we unreasonable to withdraw our child from a school church service?

[Dad0f1]

Hello everyone new member here just looking for some advice/reassurance that I/we've made the right decision regarding withdrawing our child from a church service at school.

So our DS who is our first child started Reception this September at our local CofE primary school and although neither myself or my OH are church goers we felt that this was the best school for him as the other practical nearby choices were a RC school or a two form entry state school which our DS would not have coped with.

And to be fair our DS has settled in nicely making lots of new friends and seems to be enjoying it however, the other week we was informed that the children would be attending a 'School Communion Service' in the nearby church that the school is attached to and not having a clue what this was I enquired with the Head of RE what the service entailed, how involved DS would be in the service and what was expected of him during the service.

As I suspected the service was in their words 'a simplified child friendly version of the Holy Communion Service' which would include bread and wine for those who were confirmed (as apparantly the children are offered the option to be confirmed if they wish in Y6) but the Reverend overseeing ther service likes to get the children involved so will offer all the children confirmed or not a wafer if they want one.
Also 'prompts' would flash up on a big screen at various points during the service to let the children know when to say 'Amen' etc.

Now to the reason why I/we chose to withdraw my DS from this service. Although the Head of RE made a point to explain that worship is voluntary at the school and that the children are free to take part in worship as much or as little as they wish. I very much doubt that children aged 4 or 5 can grasp the concept of this especially as they are at an age where they want to please the adults around them.
This is also made difficult for them not to be involved if they wish when they have 'prompts' flashing up on a big screen to help/nudge them into reciting a paticular phrase and when everyone around them is then repeating it parrot fashion.

Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.
So AI/WBU to withdraw him from school church services that are being conducted like this or should I let him experience them bearing in mind his young age?

I take it you've not bothered to read the thread then...

Try reading the thread, it’s pretty clearly explained.

Were we unreasonable.
not - was we.

Same at our school. The challenge was to try and say it as quickly as possible!
I'm fairly certain we knew our food came from the local supermarket and not from a divine being.

Yes, I admit that the "was we unreasonable" has been niggling at me since this thread first appeared.

WERE WE!!

If it means sod all then what's the point? I would rather not have my child mindlessly parrot it.

Except you will absolutely hear about God, faith school or not because England is traditionally a Christian country. There's no escaping it at this time of year especially, even at non faith schools where many do a nativity as standard.

I just don't want my young child to take part in religious worship when they are too young to understand what it means. That's it. I want it to be their choice when they are old enough, not encouraged by anyone, including school.

My local school is a church school. I can think of many reasons why parents would send their children to the local school, especially since it is within their rights to withdraw their child from religious service (and isn't the same as withdrawing from religious education).

@Dad0f1 Not only are you massively U but you also get pulled up for bad grammar. It's not 'was we unreasonable ' but 'were we unreasonable '. At this point I doubt you'd care.
Your poor child.

Blimey, this thread grew fast! No poll, @Dad0f1, and it's a YANBU from me. My parents did exactly the same. We joined school assemblies (though I opted out when I was a bit older) and the carol service, but nothing that smacks of allegiance to the church.

I was a bit peeved when my classmates got bridal gowns & presents for their first communion, but my parents explained what it symbolised and why we didn't partake of such things.

They made the right decision.

Was that a Catholic school, then, @GarlicMaybeNot ?

In the C of E, AFAIK, children would not be confirmed or take their first communion at the primary stage.
If it happens at all nowadays, it’d be during early-mid teens.

Poor child? Because he didn’t go to one church service?! The majority of the countries children must be poor children in that case!

It’s not nonsense, there absolutely would be a crowd complaining about faith families giving an unfair advantage to their children. Then they will say they are protecting those children from indoctrination and it’s for their benefit - it’s absolutely something that will happen.

I still don’t understand those he keep saying church schools should teach Christianity as a belief/opinion in the same way they teach other religions - to a church community their faith will be the ‘right’ one ( for them and when they are in their community ( which the school is a part of) they don’t have to treat it like other faiths - it’s a living, real thing for them and their school is an extension of that - and of course tax payers on this country have the right to have their non private schools paid for Luke everyone else. This idea that your taxes shouldn’t go to it is crazy by that rationale if you only have sons, should you pay for girls only schools? Or grammar schools when your child is in the state sector? And you can extend that out to all sorts of things?

Honestly, I really think a lot of you don’t understand what faith actually is and how it works - you are in a community that has existed long before you and will continue once you are gone - they are in it for the long haul and it means something to people.

I don’t think any of you should be allowed into places you don’t respect.

But they can learn about religion without being taught one is true or factual, when learning about different religions. For instance in my DD's philosophy and ethics class they are currently learning about different religions, they each have to pick one, research it and give a presentation on it to the rest of the class. DD has chosen the ancient Greek Gods for her religion presentation

Meanwhile in the religious studies class which she is excused from they mostly just learn about Christianity, learning bible stories and have exams on the bible, while she gets exam questions like "what is democracy?" and debate opposing viewpoints with the idea to find consensus or at least to co-exist with different points of view. I know which I think is more beneficial for a child to learn, and helps make the world a better place.

I don’t think any of you should be allowed into places you don’t respect.

You're entitled to your opinion but at the moment:

There are more places in faith schools than there are children of Christian parents so until faith schools start closing or converting to become non denominational schools, you're stuck with it

Parents can choose a faith school if they want to and withdraw their children from worship if they want to too

I understand what faith is - a firm and unshakeable belief in your own doctrines.

But not everyone shares that and parents should be able to send their child to a local state school that does not have these strings attached. And they should not be required to subsidise the indoctrination of children in one particular faith.

I have absolute respect for the many faiths that are a part of our world and would defend people's right to worship as they wish, but history shows us clearly that faiths have a tendency to want others to believe the same (the crusades, the Irish troubles, jihad .....) and church schools simply reinforce this evangelical and dangerous approach.

Let our children in our state schools learn about all religions and learn to respect others' faiths - you do not achieve this by peddling one as the "proper" religion above all the others. Children need all this information in order to make choices later in life as adults - they need to have freedom of choice. This is lost when schools have a religious bias.

I'm an atheist who was strongly Christian until age 18 and I sometimes took my son to Sunday school and church as I thought it was important that he understood the main faith of our country and how to behave in a church. I also read him bible stories as I think knowing the main stories is important.

My impression is that parents in England would freak out at their kids regularly oe even as a one off being brought to mosques to do Islamic prayers BUT I hope I'm wrong and just ill informed/ignorant!

@Mischance

I understand your argument but the problem is that if church schools diluted their message in such a way it became palatable for aetheists then they would be letting down the community that supports them ( the parish). You are still all viewing church schools as educational institutions first when I don’t think they are ( I think they should be, but not that they actually are). They are part of the church community and as such have to support the parishioners who financially and spiritually support them ( do aetheists come up after mass and donate to the school fund ?) There is so much that is done but rarely seen in church communities that keeps the community going - often it is done by the elderly and done from their place of contribution to a shared belief - that’s who you are taking from and they do it because their experiences have taught them that their faith is true.

Theres’s a horrible attitude towards religion on here that comes from a very privileged place that seems to think all Christianity is like the CofE light version. There are people I have met who will say that the Church helped them turn their life around from being homeless, drugs addicts, bereft of all hope, war refugees, young mothers on their own - just humans who at some point have needed help from outside when their problems became too much for them on their own - these are often the people you meet in the Church community and you have to view the space as something that worked for them when, for whatever reason, nothing else did (or was there, as is often the case). That is their community you are going into - it’s very real to them and again, the answer is to use the mechanisms we have here such as free schools to provide the alternatives people need. We’ve had years of attacks on faith schools yet how many non faith, free schools opened up in that time? How many did all the vocal aetheists set up? If they had, we would, over time, see a move in favour of that system from families and the communities they build that would have pulled the dynamics of the whole landscape in the direction we all ultimately want - happy, healthy places for children where credible educational methodology and content is at the centre. Instead of doing something, you’ve just all piled on to often some of the most vulnerable communities (again not all of us are middle class CofE) and demanded something without seeing it’s already there (as someone up thread pointed out, you can access these schools, you just can’t change their beliefs that there faith is correct within that setting). This is about something else, I think.

*their

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER, CofE.

@Chinhairsoftheworldunite don't you think it might be a bit harder for individuals to set up schools than huge institutions like the CofE or the Catholic church?

There have been a fair few non religious free schools set up but it's not an easy process and it's not straightforward for individuals to do it.

You also have to show:

a high proportion of the additional school places that the free school will provide – to avoid an oversupply of places in the area and to ensure that the new school will be viable

So if there are enough school places in your area at faith schools, you won't be able to set up a non denominational free school anyway?

The Troubles weren't about people's faith @Mischance.

But just withdrawing your child from acts of worship isn't demanding anything, it's simply making a decision for your own child.

Of course church schools are going to teach that their religion is the true one, that was my exact argument when a few pp's were trying to say it doesn't happen at church schools. I don't agree with it but if I sent DC to the local CofE school, that's what I would expect.

Heavens - that all makes it even worse!

Why should children be obliged to go to a school that is seen as part of the church community rather than the WHOLE community - of atheists, agnostics, Jews, Muslims and others, especially since the WHOLE community is funding it via their taxes!

Your rather simplistic idea that church communities have a monopoly on charitable activities and support is very blinkered!

In my village I belong to a group of people who work tirelessly to support the community, raising money for the school (of which I am chair of governors) and the church and giving practical help to those who need it ... organizing social events to bring people together .... helping those who are unwell. I regard myself as an agnostic - does that stop me raising money for the church so that the building can be preserved for those who have a faith? - No. Our group has agnostics, atheists, Christians and Jews, all of whom are motivated by a desire to be a support to the community - our religious beliefs are not relevant. We all share the same aims.

you can access these schools, you just can’t change their beliefs that there [sic] faith is correct within that setting). You are missing the point - we do not want to access these schools but we often have no choice! We want schools that teach all faiths and that are not shackled to one set of beliefs.