Was we unreasonable to withdraw our child from a school church service?

[Dad0f1]

Hello everyone new member here just looking for some advice/reassurance that I/we've made the right decision regarding withdrawing our child from a church service at school.

So our DS who is our first child started Reception this September at our local CofE primary school and although neither myself or my OH are church goers we felt that this was the best school for him as the other practical nearby choices were a RC school or a two form entry state school which our DS would not have coped with.

And to be fair our DS has settled in nicely making lots of new friends and seems to be enjoying it however, the other week we was informed that the children would be attending a 'School Communion Service' in the nearby church that the school is attached to and not having a clue what this was I enquired with the Head of RE what the service entailed, how involved DS would be in the service and what was expected of him during the service.

As I suspected the service was in their words 'a simplified child friendly version of the Holy Communion Service' which would include bread and wine for those who were confirmed (as apparantly the children are offered the option to be confirmed if they wish in Y6) but the Reverend overseeing ther service likes to get the children involved so will offer all the children confirmed or not a wafer if they want one.
Also 'prompts' would flash up on a big screen at various points during the service to let the children know when to say 'Amen' etc.

Now to the reason why I/we chose to withdraw my DS from this service. Although the Head of RE made a point to explain that worship is voluntary at the school and that the children are free to take part in worship as much or as little as they wish. I very much doubt that children aged 4 or 5 can grasp the concept of this especially as they are at an age where they want to please the adults around them.
This is also made difficult for them not to be involved if they wish when they have 'prompts' flashing up on a big screen to help/nudge them into reciting a paticular phrase and when everyone around them is then repeating it parrot fashion.

Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.
So AI/WBU to withdraw him from school church services that are being conducted like this or should I let him experience them bearing in mind his young age?

I don’t think anyone is massively against their child choosing to be religious when they are adults, they just don’t want to influence them towards it since they don’t believe in it.

Most people accept that their children will grow up to be their own people with their own beliefs, but while they are little the parents get to make a lot of decisions as they see fit- hence many anti vaxers were vaccinated by their parents, tattoo artists didn’t get tattoos as children, vegetarians ate meat as children etc.

Not having attended a faith school doesn’t mean that they can’t find faith as an adult or even a teenager.

goodornot The children are non-religious until/if they decide to choose a religion when they're old enough to understand what religion is.

I'm not hostile but I was raised religious and so have first hand experience of how children believe something without understanding it. I want my children to have the freedom of growing up without beliefs forced on them, if they become religious when they are older that's up to them but in school they do philosophy and ethics instead of religious studies, and don't go to the Christmas service and that is fine, it doesn't harm them or anyone else.

No nativity plays either but that's not a thing where I am, the Christmas show at school is a series of sketches instead with a more secular theme.
Carols are songs, people can sing songs without believing anything about them. Not that they ever want to sing them anyway, I'm the only one in my house that does!

I bet all of you atheists don't ban your children from the nativity play or stop them singing carols and that is hypocrisy of the highest order.

I think you are wrong to assume that all those on here who are against church schools are atheists. Many people who practise a religion can also see that church schools are wrong in principle - and that forcing parents to jump through religious hoops to get their children into their local state school is fundamentally wrong.

I would describe myself as agnostic on the subject of the existence of a deity - I do not know either way and nor does anyone else. Some people believe - but that is a wholly different thing.

I am a singer and am constantly called upon to sing texts that are religious - especially at this time of the year! - I have no problem with that - I treat it as I would an opera: a story that might contain fundamental insights into the human condition but whose doctrinal content I cannot subscribe to.

It is a bit like a Christian finding beauty in a piece of Islamic art or music.

Even if I were a practising Christian (or any other religion) I would believe that the state funding church schools is wholly undemocratic and wrong.

Grimupnorth442 - I absolutely understand your and your partner's frustration about parents playing the system, but ask yourself how you might feel if the best local state school near you was run by a Moslem church. Would you be happy to forced to attend mosque in order to get a decent education for your child? An education that is state-funded. It is possible to have great respect for the beliefs of others without being happy about one particular religion running a state school.

@Goodornot
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I bet all of you atheists don't ban your children from the nativity play or stop them singing carols and that is hypocrisy of the highest order.

Taking part in a nativity and taking part in a communion service are totally different things- a nativity is a play telling a culturally significant story, whereas communion is an act of worship.

They hold different levels of religious significance, which is why practicing Muslim children for example would be in a nativity (learning about the basis of Christianity) but not take communion in a c of e church (worship for a God they don’t believe in). Even more simply, it’s why 4 year olds do nativities but don’t take communion!

I agree with all that!

I too agree with Goodornot.
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Somebody said: "... school near you was run by a Moslem church...".

Please do not use the word, 'Moslem'; Muslims often find it offensive.

From Merriam-Webster dictionary: Moslem - formerly common but now old-fashioned, increasingly rare, and sometimes offensive variant of muslim.

They also do not have 'churches'.

Indeed - it is the principle that is important though.

Well stated, @JaniceJanice !

@Mischance, my dd and SiL did not have to jump through any ‘religious hoops’ in order for their dcs to attend an over-subscribed C of E primary - their nearest school. They are not religious nor are they churchgoers, and didn’t pretend to be.

AFAIK it was all down to being in the right catchment area.

"AFAIK it was all down to being in the right catchment area."

And there not being enough people who met the faith criteria to fill the year.

It couldn't have been oversubscribed, in that case. Catchment area is not part of the oversubscription criteria for faith schools.

There are 2 scenarios at play here:

• church primary schools
• church secondary schools

As stated above by many posters, there are times when the only suitable state primary is a church school and this is not a satisfactory situation for parents who do not practise that religion.

State secondaries that are church affiliated do require jumping through hoops, and if a parent deems that the school is educationally of the best standard they have to play the church-going game. That is not satisfactory either.

The solution is for all state schools to be non-aligned.

free to make own choices? - as long as you're the only one to indoctrinate/influence him?
YABU to use a church school

It depends where in the country you are. Certainly where we live there are RC and CofE primary schools and a RC secondary school, but everyone is allocated places by the local authority based on catchment area, with other considerations (eg siblings at the school) added into the mix. Faith is not one of the criteria.

Like many have said, I have no problem with my children finding religion but I want it to be their choice. I don't feel comfortable with them taking part in an act of worship when they are too young to understand it and it also makes me uncomfortable for it to be at a school if they are teaching religion as fact rather than just education (which I'm fine with).

Nativity plays are everywhere and are hard to avoid, even non faith schools tend to have them. I would prefer schools not to do them but I can put up with them because it's just children make believing a make believe story in my eyes.

@NewFriendlyLadybird "It depends where in the country you are. Certainly where we live there are RC and CofE primary schools and a RC secondary school, but everyone is allocated places by the local authority based on catchment area, with other considerations (eg siblings at the school) added into the mix. Faith is not one of the criteria."
Really? So you can be allocated a faith school whether you want it or not? And if you want a faith school you could be just out of catchment for one and a non faith person gets a place? What's in that for anyone?

@Goodornot I have reported your offensive Shamima Begum post.

Yanbu.

It's optional they said, you chose to remove him.

Your child, your rules.

It's not as if the god squad won't ram their nonsense down his neck at every possible chance throughout his life.

There shouldn't even be religious schools.

I don't have DC at school yet but my local school is CofE and they don't require any church attendance etc either. I'm pretty sure that means if I'm not willing to drive/take public transport or move and the next closest school is full, it would be the CofE school.

The comment isn't itself offensive, it's subjective, you found it offensive.

This is what's wrong with modern society, statements like this shut down debate.

Argue against it, pull apart the statement with reason and logic, but stating something is offensive is the adult equivalent of a child saying "I'm telling"

@jennytheonionslayer "The comment isn't itself offensive, it's subjective, you found it offensive."

It is offensive to suggest that a Muslim school would "turn out Shamima Begums" Objectively offensive.

So it's alright for other people to try to indoctrinate them then? But not the parents to choose whether or not they can be?

Muppet...

In Wales our church primary and secondary study other religions, Hindi, Muslim, Jewish they're taught about their festivals. I'm not sure what parents want totally atheist schools that respect no religion?

@justasking111 "In Wales our church primary and secondary study other religions, Hindi, Muslim, Jewish they're taught about their festivals. I'm not sure what parents want totally atheist schools that respect no religion?"

No. But to be honest, this point has been addressed so often on this thread that I can't be bothered to do it again.

Because for the 1000th time, there is a difference between educating children about religion and teaching religion as fact.

I have no issues at all with religious education such as teaching children what all of the main religions in our country believe and about the festivals they celebrate. Very different from teaching children that Christianity is fact and for them to take part in acts of worship.

I don't understand how people aren't grasping the difference.