Was we unreasonable to withdraw our child from a school church service?

[Dad0f1]

Hello everyone new member here just looking for some advice/reassurance that I/we've made the right decision regarding withdrawing our child from a church service at school.

So our DS who is our first child started Reception this September at our local CofE primary school and although neither myself or my OH are church goers we felt that this was the best school for him as the other practical nearby choices were a RC school or a two form entry state school which our DS would not have coped with.

And to be fair our DS has settled in nicely making lots of new friends and seems to be enjoying it however, the other week we was informed that the children would be attending a 'School Communion Service' in the nearby church that the school is attached to and not having a clue what this was I enquired with the Head of RE what the service entailed, how involved DS would be in the service and what was expected of him during the service.

As I suspected the service was in their words 'a simplified child friendly version of the Holy Communion Service' which would include bread and wine for those who were confirmed (as apparantly the children are offered the option to be confirmed if they wish in Y6) but the Reverend overseeing ther service likes to get the children involved so will offer all the children confirmed or not a wafer if they want one.
Also 'prompts' would flash up on a big screen at various points during the service to let the children know when to say 'Amen' etc.

Now to the reason why I/we chose to withdraw my DS from this service. Although the Head of RE made a point to explain that worship is voluntary at the school and that the children are free to take part in worship as much or as little as they wish. I very much doubt that children aged 4 or 5 can grasp the concept of this especially as they are at an age where they want to please the adults around them.
This is also made difficult for them not to be involved if they wish when they have 'prompts' flashing up on a big screen to help/nudge them into reciting a paticular phrase and when everyone around them is then repeating it parrot fashion.

Whilst we do want our DS to learn about Christianity we also want him to make up his own mind about whether to accept it or reject it in later life.
So AI/WBU to withdraw him from school church services that are being conducted like this or should I let him experience them bearing in mind his young age?

That’s nice for you.

The one I went to had speaking in tongues in assembly,

and laying on of hands and faith healing (by the RE teachers who were all ordained ministers).

We had lots and lots of hell fire, including at church where we went every week.

We had prayer at the beginning and end of the day (if not at the beginning and end of each lesson),

Anyone not ‘of our faith’ (including people who thought they were of our faith but were doing it wrong by being gay, or having sex outside marriage or something) were on our merry way to hell.

We didn’t have philosophy or ethics teaching, we had debates about the possible date of the gospel of St Paul.

We didn’t have a bullying policy because ‘we are a Christian family’, therefor the onus is on the victim to think WWJD? and forgive the bully.

My DCs school was the same.

You clearly haven’t met the Christians I have!

Ah. Things can be true but not facts. And there’s a great diversity of beliefs within Christianity and within the C of E.

Even the church has come a long way from the Medieval period.

But I can’t be bothered to argue any more. Everyone should just send their child to whatever school they want, as long as they don’t complain when the school apparently acts in the way it says it’s going to.

A belief that God exists and often language that discusses God's existence as fact.

At my nephew and nieces CofE school they pray before lunch every day thanking God for the food they are about to eat.

There's no need to complain since you can just withdraw them from religious services.

That sounds like something at the culty fringes. It is not typical of the vast majority of C of E schools.

No one is complaining- the op removed her child from an act of worship. She didn’t complain that it was happening or object to it happening or try and stop it happening, she just didn’t send her kid. Which is her right, and has no effect on anyone else.

There is grater diversity now than in medieval times, that’s so obvious as to be a non statement.

My lesbian friend is Godmother to my child, who has 3 gay parents- and is a fully ordained C of E minister with her own parish.

Her bishop however doesn’t believe that women should be allowed to be priests.

My bishop is strident in her opposition to gay marriage.

My mil and fil refused to come to my wedding because it is sinful.

My son’s Grandad baptised him (he is a c of e minister), but at the reception afterwards my uncle shouted at everyone for endorsing something so ‘unchristian’.

Pretending that all Christians, or even all C of E Christians have become free thinking moderates is just silly.

That was a run of the mill C of E high school. Extremely popular and hard to get into because of its high academic standards (for our area at least). In England, in the 2000’s.

It’s important to remember that individual staff personalities can make a massive difference on a school culture. Ours was a melting pot of happy clappy evangelicals.

Quite a while back on this thread someone rightly pointed out that joining in a nativity play or learning the parable of the good Samaritan for instance is qualitatively very different from taking part in a communion service. The latter is what the OP has quite rightly withdrawn her son from.

Two of my GC are at a state CofE primary school. They came home one day tasked with making a dead body to put in a tomb - hmm. It is the only state school in the village, so parents have to suck this inappropriate stuff up.

Non-aligned schools do not disrespect faiths - they teach them all, study their beliefs and rituals. What they don't do is to peddle one as being the truth over and above the others.

4 year year olds can't take the Eucharist. Or they shouldn't. Strictly speaking that sacrament is only for those who have been confirmed which you can't do until you're a much older child or adult.

Some allow it if you've been baptised but you should have been confirmed.

Taking part in a Eucharist service isn't that big a deal. They can't actually do it and it's just acting something out.

That's incorrect, it's for people that have taken first holy communion, confirmation is later.

But it's not for 4 year olds.

The Church Of England day you can take communion before you are confirmed these days.

@Behindyouiam there's no first holy communion in the CofE.

You are talking about RC- C of e baptise little children or babies, then confirmation at 13/14 ish, after which you can take communion.

Generally at least… a lot of churches will let you take communion if you are from an UR background for example, even though they do baptism/confirmation differently.

I think many of you see religious schools as something that you should be able to slip in and out of in a way that makes you feel comfortable - they don’t work like that, they are an extension of the faith and part of the whole community along with the parish church.
You cannot pick and mix in that world, its all in or not. You are saying the ones who have committed should accommodate what feels like insincerity in the very space they have committed to.

I taught in a convent and was disgusted at the attitude of some of the non Catholic parents attitude - they would openly mock, get loads of things wrong about science based on what they thought we taught ( creationism??!) when as a state school we follow the science curriculum which completely sits within the Catholic framework as the Big Bang was a concept from a Jesuit priest and the scientific method was established by the Church (and if you want to talk about Galileo then please be prepared to also discuss Ptolemy and his work on physics), and had a complete and utter failure in understanding that church schools are about the whole person, an holistic approach.

The government gave atheists everything they wanted in free schools where you could establish your own schools ( just as church and faith communities have done) and if you were as genuine about education as you all say then you would have used this mechanism to establish the kind of school you want.

Lastly, if there is willful ignorance it really is coming from people who think we don’t get it - we do, you don’t. Again, the mocking when you are wilfully not addressing the point from the position of those of the faith as you don’t think you should have to. The only solution is no non practicing in church schools or no faith schools at all ( my preference). But then you will just start complaining about Sunday schools, Jewish community classes, etc giving their students an unfair advantage.

They do work like that- you can pick and choose- you can choose to remove your child from worship activities. That’s the law.

Saying grace before school dinners was fairly standard for my (pretty ancient) generation - ‘Forwhatweareabouttoreceivemaythelordmakeustrulythankful - gabble gabble gabble, get stuck in - it honestly meant sod all, and many of us had worked out by early teens what we did or didn’t believe in - mostly didn’t.
We certainly weren’t in any shape or form indoctrinated.
At dh’s school they said it in Latin!

I think many of you see religious schools as something that you should be able to slip in and out of in a way that makes you feel comfortable - they don’t work like that, they are an extension of the faith and part of the whole community along with the parish church.

But they should not be paid for by the state, because GB is in the main a secular state. If you want to set up a private religious school, then so be it; but it is fundamentally wrong that it should be paid for by the tax payers, and forced on those who do not want their children to go to a religious school. Many people do not want to "slip in and out" of it, they do not want to obliged to "slip in" in the first place!

Taking part in a Eucharist service isn't that big a deal. They can't actually do it and it's just acting something out. Some parents do not want their children acting out eating human flesh and drinking human blood - and who can blame them!?

You need to chill. I’m not religious by any means but what you describe is harmless; he gets to participate with his friends and not feel excluded. Many of my relatives went to catholic school and by the end of it they all ended up atheists… a mass here or there won’t make him full on Christian for life.

Not sending him is also harmless.

@Chinhairsoftheworldunite "The only solution is no non practicing in church schools or no faith schools at all ( my preference). But then you will just start complaining about Sunday schools, Jewish community classes, etc giving their students an unfair advantage."

Why on earth would anyone complain about those things?

"But then you will just start complaining about Sunday schools, Jewish community classes, etc giving their students an unfair advantage."

This is just bizarre nonsense! Probably a straw man argument, but absolute bollocks nonetheless!

It's simple. If you want your child to learn how to observe your particular brand of religion, take them to your church, mosque, synagog, druid coven, whatever. It has absolutely no place in education, except as something to learn about to understand why the world is in such a complete mess...

Absolutely yabu.

I really do not understand parents who send their child to church schools and then want them excluded from church things.

I also don't understand "We want Tallulah to decide for herself about God so we're going to make sure she doesn't hear about him or have anything to do with him until she decides whether she likes him".

It's like saying you're going to let your child pick which football team they want to support (if any) and then never ever letting them watch a football match.