AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

[JustKeepSwimmingAlong]

I’ve taken my kids swimming tonight, both have separate swimming lessons and I swam with one while the other had theirs. Eldest is male, 9 and has multiple additional needs including ADHD, ASD and some physical disabilities which means he struggles to change himself. Youngest is in nursery so can dress herself but does need supervision. We got out the pool and realised all the changing rooms were full. There were 8 classes on over multiple pools, as well as general swim on at the same time. There’s only two family/accessible changing rooms and the others are all individual. There were literal queues for the large changing rooms.
I then noticed people going out of the group change. I’ve not used it before, but there was a male and a female changing room, so we went in the females. There was no one in it so started laying out the kids clothes and getting them to shower. Got them out the showers and started to get them dressed and people started coming in. There were a couple of mums with young girls and boys, and then a teenager looking girl came in by herself. She immediately came over to tell me that we were in the female room. I explained my son needed help getting changed and the changing rooms were full, but this room had been empty so we’d used it rather than standing wet and cold waiting for a changing room.
We were nearly Finished and my son was fully dressed when she arrived. He sat next to me, facing the wall and we left within a few minutes. During this time, she did get changed, so we didn’t delay her. Now I’m wondering if I was unreasonable?
I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I really don’t know what else I could have done in the situation? There’s too many classes and too few changing rooms, and we need a larger/accessible one, but they’re the only ones with baby change so they’re really
Popular. The lessons are every week so now I’m wondering what I can do next week? Would I be unreasonable to keep using the group change if there are no other options available?

@Heresapickle

Yes, you’re right.

No one here, including myself, is an authority on this.

My child has accommodations and exceptions in virtually every other aspect of life, so I suspect there may be some discretion here.

But it’s useless to affirm a position one way or another without actual evidence and legal advice.

I would say I’ll report back if I find out anything one way or the other, but suspect this will be a 40 page job.

@JustKeepSwimmingAlong if I find out anything I will pm you so you know your rights and the procedures to follow, hope this weeks swimming goes better than last.

@Robinni it does make for a dull discussion and doesn’t allow for the nuance of a real life scenario, and doesn’t reflect how real life discussions and decision making takes place… literally no rules or laws would ever be made or altered if real life arguments were approached like that. Luckily this is only mumsnet!

The term “reasonable adjustment” is used to describe situations where “the rules” are bent and changes to accommodate disability. The discussion could be around what IS reasonable in this situation and what real life adjustments people have been offered. I think that’s what @JustKeepSwimmingAlong really was looking for even if she didn’t know it.

Exactly.

Allowing males over the age of 8 into a female only space would not, and cannot, be a reasonable adjustment if we are to protect female only spaces - this applies regardless of disabilities or not.

We cannot let businesses fail to provide adequate facilities for disabled/SEN people and their carers (especially of the opposite sex) and essentially force women to accept (disabled/SEN) males in female only spaces because there's nowhere else to go.

Call me harsh if you like, or say I've not been there, but my view is relevant and valid.

It is relevant and valid but it won’t stop it happening, only better provision will.

I mentioned a female space where disabled male children and adolescents ‘have’ to be if they aren’t going to wee on the floor and invited people to join me in an email campaign- no one did.

I asked whether people also directed their ire at the management of venues when a female carer takes a male into the female space because their isn’t enough accessible provision- you were the only person who responded.

There aren’t enough disabled women with the time, energy, agency and education to change these things on our own 🤷‍♀️.

It isn’t a case of disabled people expecting able bodied people to fight our battles for us, it’s a case of a subset of women asking other women to fight along side us.

I don’t think you’re harsh @sollenwir I do think that its fine saying there should be x,y, and z, but what to do in the meantime and in the real world is less straightforward.

Are we saying the “solution” is that female carers and siblings, in the absence of disabled facilities must change in the male changing rooms with their male disabled?

To my mind that is throwing extremely vulnerable females under the bus. Surely they have some rights too?

OPs in the moment decision is very easy to understand to me, because she thought they could change before anyone turned up. What she failed to understand (and that’s because her boy IS young and so she’s only just hitting these issues) is that HE is being put in danger by being in female spaces. Not of arsey women being unkind, he’ll hit that in lots of spaces, but of being accused of being “a weirdo man in the ladies”. Disabled young men are extremely vulnerable to that particular story. They have little to defend themselves with and much to loose. I can’t stress enough how important it is that he has exemplary manners and boundaries if at all possible.

Seems to be different at different schools as my DD is 9 and in Y4 and they still change for PE and swimming together

@TomeTome I don't know what the interim answer to lack of accessible changing is, I do know that it's not telling females that they have to accept males in their protected space. I know that more than likely makes things even harder for parents/carers of disabled/SEN kids, but this is the fault of the facilities/businesses and not those females wishing to protect their spaces.

Hopefully anyone reading these comments will think twice about using a larger/accessible changing space/room unless they genuinely need to.

My son's class changed together for PE until mid primary, but they were always in separate changing rooms for school swimming.

I think the families need should have been prioritised in any of the available spaces. I honestly think the leisure centre can help with this for next week if OP calls ahead as they can make the cubicles only for disabled people for a limited time. You swim teacher may be able to help them work out which times this will be needed.

Yep, while venues continue to not provide adequately for disabled people then this will keep happening- carers will use the female space because 1) women are likely to be more understanding and 2) if they don’t like it they are less likely to become abusive and violent than men.

This is why I’ve pointed out several times that if all the women who have come across this type of situation went and complained about the lack of disabled facilities as well as challenging carers and complaining about them, EVERYONE would have a better experience…

@Heresapickle (sorry, can't quote an already quoted post).

I would likely not challenge this if it was happening in a general ladies' loo and this was obviously a male carer helping a disabled woman. A changing facility is different, in particular a shop fitting room which these days seem infiltrated by men taking up women's space so they can give their approval or otherwise to their partners' choice of clothes. Nothing to do with disability, it should be added.

I've now 'self-excluded' from high street changing rooms and always order online for precisely this reason; also because of the 'fur babies' (not assistance dogs) which are suddenly and inexplicably present in shops everywhere. Shops need to get the hint. The high street is struggling enough already and will continue to struggle if people vote with their feet in this way.

I haven't encountered the scenario you mention as far as I can remember. If I ever do, I will respond as you suggest by taking this issue up with the venue as well as (or instead of, as the situation requires it) the men concerned. Thank you for making this point. It's likely that not enough people consider it.

Without knowing the circumstances of any of the other users I think it's hard to say definitively, but OP definitely needs to ask the leisure centre directly if they can help her get some sort priority access to one of the accessible cubicles.

I really feel for you but at the end of the day you chose your convenience over other women and girls privacy and dignity and that's not really reasonable (and I do understand how hard it is for ADHD kids to wait for anything).

Unless it was an outdoor pool in the middle of winter the 'getting cold' part is a not a reasonable justification- take towels to wrap up in while waiting for a changing room (or get a towel poncho) .

It's crap that there aren't more disabled facilities provided.

Zombie thread

I took my sons with me up to about 8 or 9 in Loos and changing rooms. They were tall for their ages so maybe looked 11. I got a few looks from women but nobody said anything, ultimately it was about my sons safety and I am rightly or wrongly very anxious and security conscious about my dc.