AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

[JustKeepSwimmingAlong]

I’ve taken my kids swimming tonight, both have separate swimming lessons and I swam with one while the other had theirs. Eldest is male, 9 and has multiple additional needs including ADHD, ASD and some physical disabilities which means he struggles to change himself. Youngest is in nursery so can dress herself but does need supervision. We got out the pool and realised all the changing rooms were full. There were 8 classes on over multiple pools, as well as general swim on at the same time. There’s only two family/accessible changing rooms and the others are all individual. There were literal queues for the large changing rooms.
I then noticed people going out of the group change. I’ve not used it before, but there was a male and a female changing room, so we went in the females. There was no one in it so started laying out the kids clothes and getting them to shower. Got them out the showers and started to get them dressed and people started coming in. There were a couple of mums with young girls and boys, and then a teenager looking girl came in by herself. She immediately came over to tell me that we were in the female room. I explained my son needed help getting changed and the changing rooms were full, but this room had been empty so we’d used it rather than standing wet and cold waiting for a changing room.
We were nearly Finished and my son was fully dressed when she arrived. He sat next to me, facing the wall and we left within a few minutes. During this time, she did get changed, so we didn’t delay her. Now I’m wondering if I was unreasonable?
I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I really don’t know what else I could have done in the situation? There’s too many classes and too few changing rooms, and we need a larger/accessible one, but they’re the only ones with baby change so they’re really
Popular. The lessons are every week so now I’m wondering what I can do next week? Would I be unreasonable to keep using the group change if there are no other options available?

@sollenwir

I appreciate your priority really I do.

But equally I am not going to have a child under the age of 10 suffering.

I would have no option but to leave @PuttingDownRoots

But then the leisure centre would be facing legal action.

It's not my priority, it's the priority of any females over males in an female only communal area.

Your child isn't allowed in there, he is the wrong sex and is too old.
He could also be causing other female children to 'suffer' because of his presence.

Demand the proper accessible facilities instead of telling females that they have no say regarding you bringing a male child into their space, a space which he has no right of access to.

Legal action on the basis of what exactly?
If it's for failing to provide an accessible space/enough accessible spacer, then yes, you may well have a point.
If it's for failing to let you take your male child into a female only area, then no, you have no valid point.

You are knowingly taking a male into an area which is for the exclusive use of females (and younger males as an exception). Your male child has no right to be there. You cannot turn this area into the area you need.

Out of interest, not just @sollenwir but anyone- if you had observed that people who were not entitled to use the accessible space were using the accessible changing space, but it didn’t directly affect you because no one had taken a boy into the female space- would you still go and complain or raise it with the people in question?

There are always a lot of people who say ‘I told someone with a baby not to use the accessible loo’ or similar things on these threads, but none that say they raised it with the venue (unless they were directly affected).

@sollenwir

I have made very clear that following reading this thread and once my son turns 9, I will be checking in advance of attending anywhere that disability arrangements are in place.

So we should never be in a female changing room.

If and I say if there were all disabled spaces and family spaces blocked and I couldn’t get a hold of management I might ask any ladies in the ladies change if they minded supporting me with a difficult situation by letting him change if he was still near the cut off age.

But the likelihood of that ever happening, particularly now when I’m forewarned is slim to none.

of course they do, because he is THEIR boy. Everyone essentially cares more about their children than anyone else’s when it comes down to it.

So mothers who aren’t provided with suitable changing facilities (whether that’s because of disability or age of child) will carry on doing this as long as places are allowed to carry on providing substandard services.

@sollenwir for failing to provide an accessible space/enough accessible space

I am always wary of assuming whether or not someone has a disability as some can be more hidden than others, and I wouldn't want to make the person feel they had to explain themselves to me - unfortunately there are people who take advantage of this though, when their only disability is lack of understanding/compassion for those with extra needs.

And the females who find their space has been taken away by you (by taking a male into a female only space), how do you expect them to feel/proceed (either for themselves or on behalf of their daughters who are now expected to change in front of males)?

9 is far too old to be in the wrong sex changing room. You should have just waited

Yes, this is the downside of the (very true) point that not all disabilities are visible. Clearly you can’t presume/ask people.

I meant more when people have said ‘X told me they would just nip In because they were only going to be a minute’ etc- a situation where everyone knows the person using the space doesn’t need it, the person makes it clear that they aren’t entitled to it really, and everyone tuts-

I just wonder if anyone would take it further and do the complaining to staff thing that they would all do if a boy was in the female space.

I think your position is quite inconsistent here.

You'd have no issue with women and girls pointing out that your son was too old to be in a female only space but you'd still use it rather than put your son through harm and distress?

The ladies in there cannot speak for any females who may wish to enter the female only space while you are in there with a male. He is not allowed.

Yep, she would because he is her child- he matters more to her than the women in the space do.

This line of argument is always pointless- you will find very few people who would choose to put their child through harm and distress for other people’s benefit. Especially strangers in a changing room.

I have also complained to pool staff in the past when people have abused the changing facilities at our pool, for example using the one larger cubicle just because they 'like the space' and not because they need it, forcing anyone else who does need it to wait (or change in the busy communal space).

Of course he matters more to her, that's natural, but when we are discussing him not being allowed in the female only space, potentially being asked to take him out, and so on, then she has to accept that overall he doesn't take priority in a female only area - females do.

But that's why the rules shouldn't be flexible or open to interpretation.

Everyone thinks they and their children are more important than everybody else, but if they all behaved that way then society would break down.

This poster’s position shifts ever so slightly as the arguments present themselves, constantly shifting the goalposts to be ‘right’. It’s tedious, and fairly pointless arguing.

@sollenwir

I expect them to honestly tell me whether or not they are ok with him being in the same space. And a lot would depend on the layout, number of people in the space as to whether my child would be changing in front of a girl or vice versa…

Personally I am capable of holding a towel around my son and shielding him in mixed use spaces - where he already changes in front of peers up to age 11!!!

I would have no problem supporting another mother and her child in the event they had faced discrimination. So I would hope others would be supportive to me and mine if we ever needed help.

My position is as follows

1. womens spaces should be for women and their children up to whatever age dictated by the provider of said space.

2. where a disabled child of primary school age is incapable of going into the men’s on their own and the caregiver is female, IF there is no other accessible space provided or a disabled bathroom available, then there should be an exception made to allow the slightly older child to accompany their mother to ensure they are safe from harm. To add to this, if this occurs the older male should not be allowed into the shower area for his and others protection.

That’s it.

On a weekly basis I take my child to a private school swimming lesson, all the children up until 11 are lumped in together and aren’t harmed in the process!

@MargotBamborough @sollenwir I know, female spaces are for female people and not peoples beloved sons.

But it’s a pointless line of argument to say ‘your son might upset my daughter’ to people who believe that the alternative is harmful to their child. That argument won’t change their minds because people will never put other people’s children ahead of their own if they believe that to do so would be of detriment to their child.

It’s the same type of discourse as the argument about ND kids hurting others in school-

the parents of the child being hurt might feel bad for the disabled kid doing the hurting, think they should have extra support etc- but their child is being hurt and stopping that is their number one concern.- people who think their kids are in danger if they don’t stay with them in the female space will be equally unwilling to see the opposite side.

Im not disagreeing with your point at all, I’m saying that it’s a pointless angle to take in the argument with nearly everyone- they will say ‘yeah, my son matters more to me than your daughter, obviously. Why should I send my child to get hurt in the men’s space so that your child feels better?’

What's your view if the adult is a male and the child female

There was a post the other week where a father thought he could use the female toilets as his daughter needed to go.

Not having a go at you, by the way, just interested

This is a point- different places have different rules so there should be clearer signage.

My son has swimming lessons at a private school pool and there is only one open plan changing room as far as I know- mums & dads change boys & girls all together (no adults getting changed though).

It’s conceivable that if that’s your normal you might think it’s normal everywhere unless someone/something tells you otherwise.

Unfortunately this is why women and disabled people need to take an absolute zero tolerance approach to male people and able bodied people using their spaces, and the owners/managers of these spaces need to have their backs.

Obviously with accessible spaces it's more difficult to know whether someone has a hidden disability but I would be giving someone using an accessible space to change their baby when separate baby changing facilities are available very short shrift, for example.

In female only spaces the answer needs to be, "No. I don't care if you are 9 and have autism. I don't care if you really believe you are a woman deep down in your soul. You are not a girl or a woman therefore you should not be in this space. The answer is no. I don't care what your excuse is."