AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

[JustKeepSwimmingAlong]

I’ve taken my kids swimming tonight, both have separate swimming lessons and I swam with one while the other had theirs. Eldest is male, 9 and has multiple additional needs including ADHD, ASD and some physical disabilities which means he struggles to change himself. Youngest is in nursery so can dress herself but does need supervision. We got out the pool and realised all the changing rooms were full. There were 8 classes on over multiple pools, as well as general swim on at the same time. There’s only two family/accessible changing rooms and the others are all individual. There were literal queues for the large changing rooms.
I then noticed people going out of the group change. I’ve not used it before, but there was a male and a female changing room, so we went in the females. There was no one in it so started laying out the kids clothes and getting them to shower. Got them out the showers and started to get them dressed and people started coming in. There were a couple of mums with young girls and boys, and then a teenager looking girl came in by herself. She immediately came over to tell me that we were in the female room. I explained my son needed help getting changed and the changing rooms were full, but this room had been empty so we’d used it rather than standing wet and cold waiting for a changing room.
We were nearly Finished and my son was fully dressed when she arrived. He sat next to me, facing the wall and we left within a few minutes. During this time, she did get changed, so we didn’t delay her. Now I’m wondering if I was unreasonable?
I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I really don’t know what else I could have done in the situation? There’s too many classes and too few changing rooms, and we need a larger/accessible one, but they’re the only ones with baby change so they’re really
Popular. The lessons are every week so now I’m wondering what I can do next week? Would I be unreasonable to keep using the group change if there are no other options available?

I know how my autistic teenage daughter would proceed. I can tell you my autistic daughter would not be subtle or see anything offensive in what she is saying when she queries the presence of the boy to me, but it will probably be blunt enough to ensure no older male child will go willingly with his mother into a women's room again. I could shut it down, after she'd already made her statement and, if she was uncomfortable, we'd sit on the bench and wait till they'd left. It can only be uncomfortable to have someone sitting there waiting for them nearby.

@Heresapickle well the last time was our local leisure centre but was a few years ago. They were disabled toilet-less in that part of the building. But it’s happened in multiple places over the years. I don’t ask anymore as we just get on with things.

I remember being in year 3 when we started to use separate changing rooms as well.

@Robinni Give it a bloody rest now. You are so obsessively over invested in this thread it is becoming uncomfortable. People have a different opinion to you. Get over it. Even OP has stated they wouldn’t do this again because they understand it not appropriate.

@JustKeepSwimmingAlong Just remember mumsnet isn’t actually real life. The world is not set up for mums. If a teenager approaches you about your son being in the change room, you have to remember the girl has no experience of being a parent and navigating public spaces. Just be polite and explain there weren’t any family rooms available and you need to get your kids changed. Apologise and say you won’t be long, and let her know she can use a toilet cubicle if she doesn’t want to wait for you to leave. The girl will likely find another family with boys getting changed in there once you leave. It’s annoying because there should be somewhere for everyone, but there isn’t. My two local swimmers centre’s don’t have many options, one only has men’s and women’s, the other has the men’s women’s and two family rooms that are always busy after swimming lessons. No one is going to stand around and wait with cold kids shivering, and there are always boys in the women’s change rooms. I have never heard someone have a problem with a 10 year old boy going into female change rooms in real life, so take all the replies with a grain of salt.

@itsdark Do you often approach young boys in public change rooms?
It’s one way to guarantee the kid never goes into a change room on their own.

I would like to know how you think aggressively confronting a child in a room full of mothers would play out? Good luck with that.

I have no need to (and why do you assume it's a confrontation and aggressive. Weird assumption. There are other ways to communicate). I wouldn't have to say anything because I know my daughter will say something audible to me that the kid will hear. That will have all the impact necessary. I did once tell the staff about a woman who had a boy with her about 12. They told the mother to leave, she refused and got banned from the facility.

It's not going to be an issue where I swim. We have three general change rooms - one for women, one for men, and one mixed sex. No-one can claim they aren't catered to.

Honestly @itsdark I don’t think at 9 my child would have been intimidated by your daughter. He may have registered her tone but his verbal communication wouldn’t have been sophisticated enough. We have of course been “not wanted” in a myriad of places. Not everyone is very evolved and some people have very poor manners. (I’m not trying to imply that’s how you are.). What I’m trying to say is that our experience of being out and about often includes people trying to make us not want to use public facilities. Ds very rarely notices, and I’m grateful for that.
I do agree that you might receive a fair amount of pushback from other mothers, but I suppose that’s hard to judge in a hypothetical situation, you might meet with a likeminded crowd.

Well, if your son is not NT, then I'd have sympathy and probably just try to give you an encouraging smile, but the centre does need to make accommodations for a child that age as it's starting to push what other people would accept. I'm thinking of your typical 9 year old boy, most of who wouldn't want to be seen dead in the women's anyway, and who would certainly kick up a fuss next time their mother tried to take them in there, once someone has commented on it. My DD wouldn't be at all intimidating, she just is very autistically straight forward and sometimes doesn't realise how it comes across. She doesn't mean any harm but her harmless comment, made to me, would definitely hurt the male pride of any NT 9 year old boy. At that age their sense of maleness is well developed and they don't want to be treated like a young kid.

No worries about me getting push back from other mothers. I usually find that other people are more likely to speak up before I do, which just validates the thoughts I've been having. I do draw the line at 12 year olds in there though and will get management involved to sort that out.

I'm sorry you've felt unwanted and that shouldn't happen. It wouldn't happen in any of the sports facilities near where I am because they've all come up with good solutions, usually when they've renovated the changing areas. That's how it should be for everyone.

I was at the theatre once and went into the toilets. There was an elderly man in their helping his elderly disabled wife use the toilet. I found this quite understandable and would have thought it heartless for anyone to not understand that situation. Some facilities are older and don't have good accessible spaces. It was sweet but sad to see.

What?
Being a parent doesn't give you the right to break rules or dismiss other people's eelings.

I'm thinking of your typical 9 year old boy, most of who wouldn't want to be seen dead in the women's anyway, and who would certainly kick up a fuss next time their mother tried to take them in there, once someone has commented on it.
Most 9 year olds have very little agency and just do what they’re told.

Clearly I mean feelings....not eelings.

(To late to edit .... if only I hadn't edited it once to start with).

@itsdark Of course you did🤣

I work with 9yos. The boys are just as vocal as the girls about not wanting to share facilities with each other.

They can also kick up big stinks when asked to do something they find humiliating.

Of course they are, they're all developing a sense of identity and gender is an important part of that.

I was referring to the person who was suggesting that being a parent effectively meant she could dismiss the teenage girl's feelings regarding there being a male in there.

Both boys and girls may well feel uncomfortable changing in a communal area already, and bringing a child of the opposite sex in there will make most of them feel even more uncomfortable. We have to listen when they speak and not dismiss them as having less say.

Yep, while venues continue to not provide adequately for disabled people then this will keep happening- carers will use the female space because 1) women are likely to be more understanding and 2) if they don’t like it they are less likely to become abusive and violent than men.

This is why I’ve pointed out several times that if all the women who have come across this type of situation went and complained about the lack of disabled facilities as well as challenging carers and complaining about them, EVERYONE would have a better experience…

@PixieLaLar

I had already left the thread because I got sick of the parroting.

I am over invested to an extent because this impacts me and my child going forward similarly to how it impacts OP.

If you have a child without a disability a cut off of 8 is fine. But with disability, if non disabled people continue to block space allocated, it creates issues.

So, what I will be doing going forward is firstly contacting CAB and similar to see where I stand in terms of the law and what provision I can ask for. As well as contacting any facility we are due to visit in advance.

Because I don’t ever want me or my child to have to face difficulties in future.

'Parroting'?
You mean people having to continually point out that your child has no right to be in an all female space, if he's over the allowed age, and you continually arguing that he does?

I'm glad you're seeking advice on you and your son's rights, and pushing for better provision, but please emphasise the need for more adequate facilities for him and stop pushing his apparent right to enter female only spaces!

@sollenwir

I do not want to bring any male child into a female space.

But the fact is my child - and I say child, not adolescent, that is different - should be entitled to go to swimming, school, whatever just the same as everyone else.

If my child was female, she would be able to accompany me - the main carer - to adulthood regardless of whether disabled/family space was available.

But because my child is male this creates issues.

I am not going to actively seek out to defy rules in place.

But what I am going to do is actively investigate our position and see where we stand in terms of equality law, provisions allowed and so forth to avoid conflict.

Your narrative seems to have changed again - you definitely have been arguing for his right to be taken into female only changing facilities, now you're apparently not arguing for that?
Push, push, push to get him access accessible facilities he needs, so he can do things like swimming, because taking a male over the allowed age (disabled or not) into the female only space isn't a viable option.

@sollenwir I don’t know how to pull up all my posts to review my narrative. I am certainly not reading through 37 pages!!!

I have never been fighting for all boys over the age of 8 to adulthood to be allowed into changing rooms… that would be ludicrous.

What I have said, consistently, is that in specific circumstances, where a disabled child is at risk of injury/death and no disability provision has been made, or it is oversubscribed… then and only then there may be an exception.

Which is what I intend to find out. Usually there is some degree of leeway around disability. Or a set of prescribed procedures to follow.

I do think it would have been much more helpful and interesting if this thread had followed the path of trying to ascertain a firm position of where things stand in equality law for disabled children and allowances permissible. Rather than the “computer says no” model of discussion.

@Robinni I think the discussion will always come down to a ‘computer says no’ type of dialogue because that’s the single firm position women have.

They can argue that they don’t like men in women’s spaces- other women will say they don’t mind,

they can argue their daughters don’t like it- other women will say that their daughters don’t care,

they can say it’s a slippery slope, at what age do we stop disabled boys going into women’s spaces- other women will say ‘11’ or ‘16’ or ‘when they become adults’ and they will all have reasons to support their argument.

they can say it puts women and girls at risk of attack- other women will say their 9 year old doesn’t rape people, why the fuck would you think that? What’s wrong with you?!

So ‘it isn’t allowed because the rule says over 8 is too old and that’s that’ is the most solid and supportable argument.