AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

[JustKeepSwimmingAlong]

I’ve taken my kids swimming tonight, both have separate swimming lessons and I swam with one while the other had theirs. Eldest is male, 9 and has multiple additional needs including ADHD, ASD and some physical disabilities which means he struggles to change himself. Youngest is in nursery so can dress herself but does need supervision. We got out the pool and realised all the changing rooms were full. There were 8 classes on over multiple pools, as well as general swim on at the same time. There’s only two family/accessible changing rooms and the others are all individual. There were literal queues for the large changing rooms.
I then noticed people going out of the group change. I’ve not used it before, but there was a male and a female changing room, so we went in the females. There was no one in it so started laying out the kids clothes and getting them to shower. Got them out the showers and started to get them dressed and people started coming in. There were a couple of mums with young girls and boys, and then a teenager looking girl came in by herself. She immediately came over to tell me that we were in the female room. I explained my son needed help getting changed and the changing rooms were full, but this room had been empty so we’d used it rather than standing wet and cold waiting for a changing room.
We were nearly Finished and my son was fully dressed when she arrived. He sat next to me, facing the wall and we left within a few minutes. During this time, she did get changed, so we didn’t delay her. Now I’m wondering if I was unreasonable?
I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I really don’t know what else I could have done in the situation? There’s too many classes and too few changing rooms, and we need a larger/accessible one, but they’re the only ones with baby change so they’re really
Popular. The lessons are every week so now I’m wondering what I can do next week? Would I be unreasonable to keep using the group change if there are no other options available?

This- and I think what often gets forgotten is that the boys may well not like it either. My NT 6 year old nephew has been complaining about going into the female toilets with his mum since before he turned 6 (we let him go in the men’s where we think it is safe… he did once get trapped because he is so small for his age he couldn’t open the door to get out!)

I, personally, have no problem with people seeing me change @JustKeepSwimmingAlong ds wouldn’t have bothered me at all,

but my niece who is 10 today would be mortified. She is an early developer and the only one in her class with breasts etc (so she tells me anyway). My sister had to go and complain to school last Christmas because they forced the class to get changed for the disco together and when she asked to use somewhere private she was told off. She is anxious about the Christmas disco this year still.

Nobody has been unkind to OP though, just honest.

Because there will be males getting changed in there that do not want a woman in their space.

Do you always call people dense when you don't have an adequate answer?

The point is that in both male and female changing rooms there will be males and females getting changed who don't want someone of the opposite sex in there.

Yet the default is 'if in doubt don't upset the men'

@sollenwir @LolaSmiles yeah, I don’t think the people making the decisions have a clue, and I also don’t think that they care- they just want to meet their legal obligations in the cheapest way possible. This is a new build place too (as in the last 15 years, not something from the 60s/70/s).

Luckily there is an m&s in a different part of town so even though it’s a 10 minute walk and a pain with lifts etc we can go there for the loo… (and then usually have to queue for an age or have agro because the ladies their isn’t big enough to get a pram in comfortably so a lot of mums use the accessible toilets).

“Just honest” is a bit like “I just say it like it is”, it in no way means you aren’t being unkind. I think you underestimate how difficult and upsetting parenting a disabled child can be. 32 pages of it! Just awful.

I think a lot of that is that men are more likely to become violent and abusive when they are upset. Women likely won’t. So it feels safer to have some women pissed off with you than a group of men.

Id hazard a guess that one of the reasons mumsnet is so staunchly and vocally opposed to men in womens spaces is because it is a safe space for people to express these views - it’s online and mostly women. A lot of women on here would probably think twice before challenging a male in a female space in real life because frankly, it could be dangerous.

Being honest doesn't inherently mean being unkind though - again, people have mostly been honest in pointing out why her actions were inappropriate, and many have also agreed that more definitely needs to be done with regards to inclusion in general.

Some folk tried to derail it into a trans/anti trans thread, but the majority realised what they were trying to do.

The thing with AIBU is that questions will get honest answers.

PS The 32 pages are made up with some incredibly long posts, with mpre spacing than average, some repetitiveness, and also some long posts being quoted (to address all the points).

I’m probably going to get flamed for this, but oh well, I’ll cope.

Are we pretending that sexually inappropriate behaviour isn’t a risk in autistic teens? So much so that all the autism support organisations don’t advise parents on how to handle this, for the protection of their children not only from predators, but as they get older, from criminal charges?
How does denying this help a child on the spectrum who needs extra help to understand appropriate behaviour?

As I said earlier, even if parents don’t care about the impact on girls, it beggars belief that they wouldn’t try to protect their sons from the consequences of poor boundaries.

Heresapickle
I agree with you.
It seems short sighted though because you would they're losing a section of custom (families with hands on dads, families with older children of opposite sex to the parent bringing them, women from religious and cultural backgrounds that require single sex spaces, women who would self-exclude from mixed sex spaces, adults with disabilities, parents of children with disabilities and so on)

For example when our DC were younger if we went somewhere as a family and found the baby changing wasn't available to men then that meant we'd not go back and DH, who was part time, definitely wouldn't go. We don't go places that don't have appropriate changing facilities for the people going because the solutions to poor facilities usually mean telling women and girls to budge up or telling disabled people to budge up and that's not ok.
We take our money to other places, but what's sad is that there's obviously enough people who have the budge up mentality that places don't feel they need to provide decent facilities.

The adults with this mentality have gained it from somewhere and it's not enough to say "society" teaches people to sideline groups/certain groups to budge up/other groups to feel entitled. "Society teaches" is the cumulative effect of individuals over time. So I won't teach DC that girls don't get privacy if boys want their space and I won't teach them that disabled or accessible facilities are there to use as and when non-disabled people find it convenient to. Hopefully when they're adults they'll be adults who respect single sex and accessible spaces.

In this particular situation there was no choice. The boy would have been less safe on his own outside than a girl inside the room. Also was there even a girl inside the room?

My answer is adequate.

Do you always parrot on endlessly expressing the same point of view that everyone has heard and preventing the conversation from developing to one where solutions are found.

I don’t find you barking out the same sentence repeatedly helpful to anyone.

We know that males shouldn’t be in female spaces.

We know that disabled people do not have adequate provision and are often pushed into women’s spaces because of this.

What do we do and how do we meet everyone’s needs??

Without sending a disabled child home soaking wet or pushing them to accept circumstances that would be harmful to their health.

This is where a big bit of the problem is.

Women with babies are not disabled.

But they won’t put themselves out to walk a short distance to a suitable toilet with baby change so they block the disabled.

We were at the museum last week, a woman with a baby was asking me where the baby change was and I explained it was down the corridor - huge room for her.

She said “oh no, it’s alright I’ll just use the disabled (2m away), I’ve got a mat”

So entitled.

You feel your answer is adequate, based on your narrative.
As for repeating ourselves, perhaps that's because there are still people trying to justify taking males into female spaces, and we keep having to tell them that isn't acceptable.
Yes, disabled provision is not adequate, we agree on that.
No, disabled males (or any males) or their female carers are not 'pushed into women's spaces' - they have no right to be there.
It isn't up to women to let males into their spaces so someone doesn't 'go home dripping wet', no matter how many times you try to put that onus on women.
You can also choose to ignore my comments if they are bothering you so much.

I'd have made a shocked face and said, "But what if a disabled person needs to use the toilet while you're in there?"

Perhaps this wasn't true in your case, but many establishments actually often combine the baby change with the disabled facilities, in one room. That clearly isn't actually helping anyone - parents might use it and feel guilty, parents might not use it and feel guilty, disabled users may feel guilty they are taking too long in there, and so on. Disabled facilities are often an afterthought, a compromise, if they exist at all.

Obviously, parents of autistic males want to protect them from developing inappropriate behaviour that could lead to criminal charges as adults.

Of course they do.

If it was the case that OP had a 14yo adolescent and was bringing him repeatedly to women’s changing that would be one thing.

This is a 9 year old boy, who would have been totally fine going in there 2 months ago at the age of 8.

This is a transitionary period where OP is adapting to the new necessary boundaries and the problems this creates in terms of managing a child with disability.

She asked for advice on how to handle it in future, not the riot act.

@sollenwir to be honest if I was in the same circumstance as OP and encountered someone like you challenging me when trying to attend to my 9yo disabled child whose space/routine had been taken/disrupted due to people without disabilities.

What I would have done is call management down immediately to protect me from the abuse and to make a formal apology to you for their failing.

I am not going to put my child - who is not sexually active or any threat whatsoever - at risk of harm because of an inflexible feminist who lacks compassion.

The situation was out of OP’s control, she did her best and will ensure her son isn’t discriminated against in future.

@MargotBamborough

I did say that, she stated “Oh it’s fine, I have a baby, and wafted off”

There is something about the 0-2 age where mothers think they have some sort of Royal status or similar and can trample over everyone.

See, now this is why I am 'repeating myself' - a 9 year old male would not have been 'totally fine' going in there, because it's a female only space and he's over the age males are allowed in as a courtesy (as said before it's up to 8 in a lot of places, although remember, like a speed limit, that is the UPPER limit).

The transitionary period needs to start before the point of the child reaching the upper age limit, not after it, and expect it still to be ok.

I hope the OP finds the courage/confidence to ask the facility how they can help her with this - they may well have policies in place, with guidance and accommodations which can be made, which do not involve taking him into the communal female changing area.

We totally agree on this.

The room I directed her too was also designated disabled, but had the baby change and an adult size changer in.

The toilet she chose to go in was solely for disabled people’s use.

I think things will improve but it will take time.

I wouldn't challenge you there and then because I don't think that would help anyone. However, a female politely questioning why a male over the allowed age is present in a communal female only changing area isn't abuse in itself, because the male shouldn't be in there to start with. I would have no problem mentioning to management/staff that there was a male in the communal changing however, and would do this concerning any male over the allowed age.
If your child is over the age allowed by the facility, then you have no right to take him in there. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's true.
For what feels like the hundredth time I have had to say this, I am on your side with the fact that we need more disabled facilities EVERYWHERE, but I will not accept this is more important than the protection of female only spaces.

I think things will improve but it will take time
I think it's going to take time and it's going to require a lot of people challenging the budge up rhetoric in their words and actions.

This will mean instead of looking around and hoping "society" gets the message, realising we all have a duty with our actions to be the society.

Eg. I will not take an older male child into female single sex spaces. Venues that do not cater for my need for unisex family changing will not get my custom. I have no problem ringing up and asking what family changing is available before going.
Eg. I will not teach my children that disabled facilities are there for them to use if it's more convenient or preferable to other facilities

This is why I think people need to take a bit of responsibility as parents for the messages we promote to our children. We can't teach our DC that people with disabilities may need accessible facilities and then in our actions show them it's acceptable for non disabled people to just nip in for a quick wee if it's more convenient.
Just like we can't teach our girls they can expect privacy and dignity in a single sex space / teach our boys about boundaries, privacy and dignity, if our actions show them it doesn't apply if we want to go to X Venue because at that point privacy and dignity doesn't matter.

Our children watch us to learn what's ok.

I have a baby and a two year old and would not do that.