Problem with person at hobby group

[ClippyCloppy]

Hi after some advice

I joined a group as a hobby a couple of months ago, we meet each week. I’m really enjoying this and the people are awesome! They are a lot older than me, mainly retired, a bit quirky, really interesting and I feel like I’ve met my tribe- I’ve never really gelled with anyone.

However, one member of the group is very annoying- he’s my age (so younger than the rest, although not sure if that’s relevant). He’s extremely opinionated, has a lot less knowledge of what we do compared to everyone else, loud and brash, sarcastic and basically I’ve really tried to get on with him, I’ve chatted to him in the break time but despite trying I just don’t like him at all.

I feel he spoils the aim of why we meet. This is not a paid a group, it’s just a group of individuals who share a specific interest and enjoy meeting up.

How can I move forward? I don’t want to stop going, and I know he has just as much ‘right’ to be there as me.

Music making is not like, say, painting. If you have someone slightly annoying in an art group you can still concentrate on your individual artwork. Someone who is highly 'individual' can be accommodate in an art class.

Chamber music is collaborative and depends on a) shared understanding and b) the ability to follow whoever is leading/directing/conduction.

When you're playing, say, a concerto if someone is playing out of time/in the wrong rhythm/using incorrect technique and will not listen and learn the music is spoiled for everybody else and the quality of any public performance will also suffer.

@ClippyCloppy

I need to learn skills to tolerate being with people. I guess people have to deal with numpties all the time, maybe in a work environment. I’m lucky though as I’m freelance so work mainly alone or can choose (to some extent) who I work with. I need some tips on tolerance I guess.

OP it sounds as if you slightly struggle with assertiveness with people like this: you've talked about wanting to be "kind" to him (which is nice and understandable) but its clear that his incessant centring of himself is not only a drain on everyone else's time and patience, it's not particularly kind on his side. He is patronising, deliberately time-wasting and probably a bit misogynistic. It sounds as if he thinks (consciously or subconsciously) that because he is a man he has a primacy in this group and wants to constantly assert himself and his views. There's a bloke like this in every workplace/volunteer group/hobby group in the world. They assume a sense of innate superiority over the women and want to imprint their territory like tom cats.

I've spent 30 years working environments dealing with men who assume that their views are automatically more important than mine purely because they are men. After a while you learn to spot it a mile off and either screen it out or call it if it needs to be called. You say you need tolerance, and up to a point you're correct: you shouldn't be shitty to him because of his lack of knowledge and expertise and you shouldn't gang up on him.

But the bottom line is his questions and observations are disruptive to the members of the group. You don't have to tolerate that. He has every right to be there but he has to behave in a way which doesn't constantly derail the group.

I think you (collectively) need to get better at shutting him down in a polite and no nonsense way: when he starts banging on about something which is just wrong you just politely say "Thanks X but this isn't really relevant and we have five minutes left so can we crack on?" It sounds as if others in the group are starting to do this already. You clearly know your stuff and you have every right to do the same. You don't really need to discuss it with the others: you'll probably find the more people who start to assert themselves, the more others will feel emboldened to do the same.

He will eventually get the message and will either grow up and learn to wind his neck in or push off to patronise another group of people who know less about Chamber Music than he does.

t-shirts, not t towels! You are right, I should get my act together and put them on ebay again. (LOL - DMs welcomed if anyone wants one! Appreciate they are a bit irrelevant to a baroque group as - eep! - the cello has a spike!)

He probably knows how you feel about him being there.
Vibes can be picked up on.
The loud, brash, sarcastic front is likely a cover up for his insecurity.
The chances are he might decide to stop attending the group of his own accord without you needing to say or do anything.

Argh, rests. Pretty sure my guy has no clue what those funny squiggle marks on the page are!! 🤯😂

As another poster has said, if he flounces it’s no great loss. So, while you may feel bad, I think you have to be blunt/clear/direct. Leave no room for misunderstanding.
If he leaves, so be it.

My ‘Dave’ actually did leave another (even more amateur) group we both played in years ago as that conductor went through the stages of correction from polite & tolerant to direct & blunt. Eventually Dave flounced. We all breathed a sigh of relief.

I found out he tried to join a higher level group but they were blunt from the get go so he only went once.

We’ve been far too tolerant. Any delicate quiet piece the conductor has to basically rejig to cut his instrument out so he doesn’t play as pianissimo is just a funny Italian word to him!

Well you’re not wrong, that probably was a good opportunity. I think I should have used the word ‘founder’ not ‘leader’. I don’t think it’s fair, or accurate to refer to him as a failure.

This is a chap in his late 70’s, retired for many years after a successful performance career. He lives alone in a quirky house where nothing matches, full of mismatching furniture overloaded with books, old manuscripts and newspapers clippings everywhere. He buys everything from the junk shop. He’s ‘old school’, just learned how to use email and the internet. He’s a fountain of knowledge, an utterly brilliant academic who knows the ins and outs of most composers, their life, their music. He knows the style, form and content of Baroque music better than anyone I have met.

We met at a concert I was performing at and I was completely blown away with his knowledge and interest. We chatted about getting together to play music. It was then that he said he’d always wanted to put together a chamber group. It was a casual arrangement, but the interest grew and we now have quite a few members.

I do not think he is a natural leader, he just wants to analyse and play different genres (Italian at the moment) of Baroque. It was only once we got going as a group that he suggested expanding and putting on concerts.

He’s very vocal at our meetings (as you would expect given his level of knowledge), however he’s not a natural leader. He doesn’t like confrontation or awkwardness (of course understandable).

Therefore I’m not sure he himself was aware he would ever be in the position to ‘lead’ the group. He does lead in a sense that he arranges what we play, organise the meetings (rehearsals) and concerts, he makes suggestions and moves things along where necessary but I don’t think he would be at all comfortable with this kind of interaction with Dave.

Great! There’s always one isn’t there 😂

As an experienced musician (albeit in a somewhat different milieu - clue’s in the user name) I free your pain. I’ve been in concert bands where the conductor works on a passage over and over with some of the weaker players until they get it right. Play it through together immediately and they get it wrong again! This is just one example.
In this case, if “Dave” persistently refuses to use a baroque bow, can’t count, insists on playing in a gushing, romantic style and admits he doesn’t practice (!!!!!) I think someone, probably the leader, needs to make clear that he shapes up or ships out. This applies particularly because you are aiming at performances which will otherwise be spoiled

So the leader is not comfortable with confrontation. As the soloist then, you need to woman up and start setting boundaries, perhaps in conjunction with other core members. Otherwise you risk the good players getting fed up and leaving.

Have auditions for the performance group?

Sorry, I might be getting a bit harsh and overinvested... This thread has touched a nerve.

It sounds a very fun endeavour, anyway.

Hmm, I don’t think I need to ‘woman up’, I’m actually pretty assertive when I need to be. As I said in a previous post it’s not just about the performance- for some members it’s about sharing an interest and the social aspect which may be the case with Dave. This is why it is a dilemma for me. I do appreciate other people have feelings and although he’s a completely irritating twerp I do not wish to ask him to leave necessarily- for all I know this may be his only ‘outlet’ and may have a really negative effect on him if he left. At the end of the day, he’s annoying but harmless.

I have had some really useful suggestions on how to respond when he pipes up, which I will be escalating over the coming weeks. If things don’t settle down though I will have a rethink and speak to him directly about the objectives of our group and see if he’s open to change and commit more effectively (do some practice).

That was the perfect opportunity for the leader to make a stand - "you play with this bow or you don't play at all".
Could the leader find some way to re-introduce the correct bow and tell him it is compulsory?
Someone has to actually stand up to him. Your leader seems to have failed here

I agree with this. Ok this is not a professional group, but it does have a definite ethos and purpose, which is to recreate period music as authentically as possible. He’s screwing this up by refusing to use the right bow and going out on a limb with adding his own inappropriate flourishes. What happens if he decides to change his violin to an electric one or channel Stephan Grapelli and chuck a bit of jazz into the mix. It’s the wrong group for him if he wants to play in a way that messes up the sound of the ensemble and won’t listen or try to learn .

I think it’s too late now as we’re all formed. That would have been an excellent suggestion in hindsight though. I think as I said in a previous post it was a very casual, fun arrangement when we first started - then things became really intense as we grew (in a good way, performance and analysis), then before we knew it our founder was booking venues for concerts.

I'm finding this very confusing. In some ways you sound like a high level group, in others you're putting up with stuff my kids' beginner up community orchestra wouldn't tolerate. It's okay to be an amateur group and want to play at a high level, it's very normal and much more fun that way.

My wording may not have been pitched right for your level, but doing scales and working on blending is very normal at any level.
Can't you and leader get together and have a quiet word? See if he's willing to work with you or if he'd rather leave and find a group more suited to the style he clearly wants to play in?

How about making it a rule that the whole group must use Baroque bows - perfectly reasonable if the intention is to be as close as possible to the original historical performance? Then, if he has still trouble using one (as he did before) maybe he'll decide to leave. If he refuses to use one then the group can use his refusal to gently eject him 'unfortunately we really want the same sound created by using the same bows, so if you can't use one then we'll have to find someone else'. That way it's his own fault that he has to leave. And if he does agree to use one and is rubbish, then he's out.

I work with someone like this, I can confirm that turning it into a game is the way forward if you don't want to leave the group.

Also set some good boundaries - my "colleague" assumed I would want to do his work for him and let him take the credit (he called it "collaborating") and was most offended when I politely said no. Based on his general attitudes, I presume his assumption was based on me being a woman and him being a man.

Bingo! is my favourite way to deal with this sort - write down his 9 most common irritating things to say and mark them off as he says them. Just remember not to actually shout BINGO! (Or do 😂) for extra effect you could keep copy on your music stand.

Give it time though, everyone gets tired of these sorts and they usually flounce off because everyone isn't falling at their feet gushing about their brilliance.

The point is it isn't just about the people. It's about the music. To serious musicians (whether professional or amateur) - and to audiences - the music really matters. It has to come first.

Sounds like there's actually quite a few issues going on here. A casual music group is not the same as one being booked for performances IME - at this point you really do need a leader, or a group chair, or whatever you want to call it, to ensure the group has direction. If you just don't like the personality of this guy that's one thing as you can obviously minimise chatting to him, but if he's spouting off stuff that isn't accurate and you know it, I would start calling him out e.g. 'actually AnnoyingGuy, that isn't correct because blahblahblah'. If he's waffling on about irrelevant crap then it's a gentle cutting off 'thanks AnnoyingGuy, now back to (whatever it is you're meant to be doing)'. A few times embarrassing him gently like this and he will likely start shutting up or, if you're lucky, leave the group entirely

His playing is as problematic, if not more so, then his personality here. He shouldn’t be allowed to play in a way that totally changes the whole point of your ensemble. If you are performing in public, then the audience are hoping and expecting to hear something as close to a recreation of a period sound as possible. There are different types of ensembles for different sounds and if you are going to be part of one, you shouldn’t be able to sabotage it by not doing what the rest of the players are doing. You’d not join a traditional Irish folk group and decide to play like Fritz Kreisler. It’s not on. I think the leader should talk with him and be firm.

OP, how did he end up joining your group? You say he lives a long way away from where the group meets, so he can’t be the only local violinist. You’ve said he isn’t very good technically, so he wasn’t headhunted on that basis.

I’m just really confused how he’s ended up in a group which is such a bad fit for him in terms of playing style. Is he friends with another member or something? I wouldn’t apply to join a baroque group 50 miles away unless I really, really liked playing baroque music…

We had one of these in our D&D group. The Dungeon Master had a word with him a couple of times and in the end we just moved venues without telling him.

Is there an organiser or leader in your group who can take him aside and have a word?

What a fascinating thread. And so many knowledgeable music people exist.

Could you raise some of these points directly in a meeting and try to get consensus? Not in a nasty way but just in an open, straightforward way.

“I m sorry i can’t get over sound made by not using the right bow, Dave I really think you need to change your bow”. If he disagrees, ask for a quick show of hands from those not bothered by the sound made by the bow.

Maybe if it seems like there isn’t a natural leader by the group exists by consensus, you can ask for the changes you are looking for. He may respond well but if he doesn’t he’ll see he will have to go.

What a fascinating thread! I love the sound of this group and am particularly pleased to hear the name Graupner mentioned - it's not one you come across much in everyday life!

It's a tricky situation because in some ways you as a group are so serious (knowing a lot about the subject, being interested in studying the music as well as just playing it, having specialist period equipment) and in others less serious (not having a really structured hierarchy or rules). I agree with those who have said he either uses that bow or doesn't play at all, but because there's no specific person "in charge" and he knows it, he may well feel that nobody has the right to give him an ultimatum like that. But if you want to be any good as a group, you need to not have him around.

I think a drip-drip-drip approach is probably the best answer here. Just keep pointing it out every time he's not playing in the right style, dominating the conversation or interfering with tuning. I don't mean just you, but everybody who can see and hear what he's doing. You need to make him want to leave if nobody has the authority to force him to leave. The bow, which the most empirically provable thing he's doing wrong, is the hill you need to be willing to die on. He uses it or he can't participate. Take a vote if necessary (if you're confident the vote will go the right way). Everything else is just useful ammo for gradually convincing him you're not the right fit for him.

I think there is a problem about traditions of politeness and #BeKind. These seem to be inhibiting the non-Daves.

But this obscures the fact that if Dave really wants to perform with other musicians, it is - in the longer term - a kindness to him to point out the need to listen to others and be willing to change. It means he will get better and enjoy more musical opportunities.

If he really doesn't care enough to do this there'll be some entry level amateur orchestra that would accept him. But maybe he - unconsciously or otherwise - has picked a small relatively unstructured (but good)) ensemble as somewhere he can try to dominate and feel good about himself.

It reminds me a bit of the arguments about trans women and sport. Why not include them? Why 'deny' them the chance to take part. But Dave is not being denied the opportunity to make music. He simply needs to find an appropriate group. (Actually Dave's situation is more fortunate than that of trans woman wanting to enter a women's race. He can actually carry on in the group if he is willing to make some relatively simple accommodations and work on his musical technique.)