Problem with person at hobby group

[ClippyCloppy]

Hi after some advice

I joined a group as a hobby a couple of months ago, we meet each week. I’m really enjoying this and the people are awesome! They are a lot older than me, mainly retired, a bit quirky, really interesting and I feel like I’ve met my tribe- I’ve never really gelled with anyone.

However, one member of the group is very annoying- he’s my age (so younger than the rest, although not sure if that’s relevant). He’s extremely opinionated, has a lot less knowledge of what we do compared to everyone else, loud and brash, sarcastic and basically I’ve really tried to get on with him, I’ve chatted to him in the break time but despite trying I just don’t like him at all.

I feel he spoils the aim of why we meet. This is not a paid a group, it’s just a group of individuals who share a specific interest and enjoy meeting up.

How can I move forward? I don’t want to stop going, and I know he has just as much ‘right’ to be there as me.

Instead of an annoying numptie, Try thinking of him as a sad 5 Yr old who is scared so babbles constantly, maybe he's got some underlying issues causing him anxiety.

If you are less tense, he may just babble less and you might find a nice person hiding in there. Or he might be an AH but being tense won't improve it

Despite my post above, I don't think this is funny. The combination of a weak/appeasing person in charge and a probable narcissist in the shape of Dave has the potential to damage/destroy the group.

After last night I would be tempted to sound out the rest of the group. Does anyone apart from the conflict- averse leader think Dave should be 'given a chance'?

Dave sounds dreadful, and surely a baroque group is not the place for someone who doesn't have immaculate intonation....

HOWEVER.....

I might be on his side a bit with regard to ornamentation in the Bach. Do you know the Telemann Methodischesonaten? Hope my spelling was up to that! There's an edition you can buy (which I have somewhere in the loft I think) which has Telemann's own ornamentation. And that is busy, to say the least. But does make sense when you look at a baroque organ and all the ornamentation there....

Ooo, it's on IMSLP! Here's a little extract to show you what I mean

It would help if some of the others in the group gave him some destructive criticism, not just you.
Is there no way to speak to any of the others and ask them to voice their opinions too?

Thanks for the update! Hah I love the double concerto… wanted to dip back in and ask how he taught himself??? Seems like pretty advanced material for someone who doesn’t have even a teacher to look over shifting or harmonics with. Did he just blast through YouTube videos for years and years? I’m so invested. If this stately home is anywhere near Colchester, I’d love to pop down 🤣

I'm in several different musical groups. One of them is very much amateur, and we play through all sorts of different music, depending upon the forces we have available that rehearsal. We have an extensive library - it's all ancient and for peculiar forces, and we don't currently have any brass, lower woodwind or enough lower strings - but we all play all the cues we know will be missing, and normally muddle through with the pieces we've chosen.

The aim is very much to play the piece as well as possible at a speed where it is comfortable. However, this might mean that some players need to only aim for the 'important' notes in each bar - and we help with identifying where this is necessary. We had our own 'Dave' who played quite a loud instrument that was fairly fundamental, and failed to listen to any of the rest of us or look at the conductor. We basically had to play any piece at the speed that he decided that he could play it - playing all the notes, as he wasn't prepared to accept that he should only aim to play the important notes (unlike other players). It all came to a head the day where we'd been trying to play something together, and we'd also been trying to get everyone to actually look at the conductor, and then set off again and I saw his foot going at a completely different time and speed from the conductor's beat, and pointed this out. He was furious, although he did continue to come to rehearsals after this incident. But the aim of the group wasn't to play music at Dave's pace, and at the speed that Dave set, it was to play music together in a musical way. Luckily he moved house and decided he was too busy sorting that out to come and hasn't been back recently. It has been such a relief to be able to lead a session without the conductor and have everyone listening enough to be able to get to the end of the piece together - and we've many fewer issues about watching the conductor too.

In terms of your 'Dave' issue, I would look at the bow suggestion. If all the rest of you are using baroque bows, him not using one will stick out like a sore thumb. It might be a good way of moving him on to a more appropriate group.

Just back in from our weekly rehearsal. Dave was back. Great.

But, inspired by this thread, I did pull him aside at the end and said,

“I say this with kindness Dave, but in one particular quiet piece you really have to play quieter. Either don’t play that piece or play quieter, it’s meant to be a beautiful horn solo. Ignore any markings on your page and treat it all as pianissimo (my error as not sure he knows what that means!). I will be listening next week!”
He has absolutely no shame at all and promised to be quieter than a mouse and just laughed.

No idea if it will make a difference, probably not, but at least I spoke up.

Always good to have news of Dave. Meanwhile my choir has fallen apart.

Tell all? Please?

@weirdoboelady This is a subject I am interested in and have read quite a bit about, and I would like to understand what you mean by this:

"I might be on his side a bit with regard to ornamentation in the Bach. Do you know the Telemann Methodischesonaten?... There's an edition you can buy which has Telemann's own ornamentation. And that is busy, to say the least.

What do you mean? It looks like you are saying if Telemann wrote lots of ornaments, modern musicians are justified in playing Bach's music with added trills in every bar, which is what OP said Dave was doing. Surely you cannot be saying that, because it makes no sense especially since Bach is known to have criticized at least one other Baroque composer (Couperin) for using excessive ornaments - see Forkel's biography.

By the way, that IMSLP screenshot you posted does not show ornamentation but an elaborate variation on the melody of the line above. Baroque composers did this often, usually calling it a Double in the same piece.

"But does make sense when you look at a baroque organ and all the ornamentation there...."

It does not, actually. The baroque organ is an instrument, not a composition style. Some Baroque composers used some ornamentation while composing for it while others used very little, reserved mostly to cadences. German composers used less ornamentation than French ones, for example, and Bach used less than many other Germans. He also criticized composers using excessive ornamentation.

I am not aware of any texts from the Baroque period or any other historically-informed performance research that suggests Bach intended performers to liberally add ornaments that are not indicated on his sheet music. If you do, please share.

I agree. Bach does not need any embellishment. That his compositions can withstand the most outrageous treatment is a testament to their quality and longevity. Doesn't meant you should mess with it tho. Dave should be catapulted out of the group with extra strength elastics and the door barred firmly behind him.

Yes, Telemann wrote lots of embellishments. Am I being naive? I was taught (by Holliger, no less) that these were models of contemporary ornamentation. Which didn't surprise me, because, you know, organs/architecture/dress.... Always happy to learn.