Fil’s ‘manners’

[ItsMissChanandlerBong]

This is a bit of an awkward issue, and I’m hoping for some advice on how to deal with it!

My fil is THE loveliest man. We have a great relationship and he’s an amazing fil and grandad. But one awkward thing keeps cropping up, his insistence on ‘old fashioned manners’. These include opening all doors for me, pulling out chairs, kisses on the cheek on greeting and leaving, all of which make me very uncomfortable! He even attempts to put my coat on for me by picking it up and holding it out.

I once got to a door first and held it open for my husband who was carrying our son. My fil refused to walk through unless he was holding it open as it would be rude! This led to a weird awkward standoff.

I suppose I want to know if I’m being unreasonable and should just let him do these things for me (which he NEVER does for his son or any other male) or do I keep doing what I’m doing (rushing ahead to get to the car first, grabbing my coat as soon as we’re leaving and deliberately choosing a chair no where near him at dinner). Or do I brave it and say to him I’d rather do it myself…

My sons and I help my mum in this way, and wouldn’t dream of doing differently. I very much hope they do for me as I get older.

I am already at the stage where I wish strong young people would hold the door, or open it for me, as it takes all my strength these days.

Men are generally stronger- opening and holding a weighted door like a restaurant or a fire door is genuinely easier for them. Carrying your shopping bags etc.

I think it’s a shame we’ve lost all that to be honest. Women might find life a bit easier if men were helpful instead of ignorant.

A while back a man wordlessly took a bag from me as I wrestled my way down the station stairs, then deposited it at the bottom, without breaking stride or uttering a word. I can’t tell you how appreciative I was.

How old is he? 150?! I'm not sure it's about age really. It all seems a bit performative if you're having a stand off at the door like that. It's a bit of a showy gallant knight nonsense to me. Does he do it with other women?

I had a male colleague once who laid on all that stuff and I told him I'd rather he didn't do that kind of thing with me. He frowned but did stop doing it. We still got along. However, is FIL going to change his behaviour if you tell him nicely to cut it out or will he act all hurt and confused? If you tell him not to and he continues that's treating you like a child.

Some on here would've called the police at that bloke 😂

I'd have been thinking "there's a proper man"

Personally I couldn't get upset over this but I am older than you. It is just old fashioned manners and the way boys were brought up to treat women as the fairer sex and hold doors open or give up your seat etc etc. I don't suppose he knows you consider it degrading unless you tell him. So do you feel strongly enough about it to embarrass him and tell him you would rather he not treat you differently to his son or other men. Does he treat your MIL the same way?

I think it's sexist and infantilising. Refusing to walk through the door that you politely hold open for him is insulting, not polite at all.

I get why you don't want to make a fuss about it, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with that behaviour either.

I would really like to understand why this grates you so much?
I think that generations were raised differently and whilst I generally think we should have respect for that, I can understand if you were to speak up about things that are harmful to you. Say for example your father in law believed only women should care for the babies and expected you to do all the nappies or if he expected you to make his tea for him because you were female ect.
But nothing he is doing is harming you in any way? I presume if you walked into the office door and a female colleague kept the door open for you to walk in behind, you'd accept.
Now because it's a man you fume about it.
I can think of more than one person that's being sexist here.
He was raised that this is a respectful thing to do for women. You are basically for sing him to do something that was ingrained in him to be disrespectful.

Honestly I find that selfish.
It takes so little of your time to respect someone enough to just walk through the door when it's open. It takes longer to argue about it

As a side note I don't know why we give our own kin so little slack.

We accept it if someone is from a different culture. We go 'oh it's their culture, we've got to be respectful of that'. Do you go to a Muslim woman and say that she should drop wearing the birka if her husband can go without covering his head?
Or speak to the Indian woman and ask why she is doing all the cooking? No you don't.

But for your own fil, who arguably grew up in a different 'culture' (one where men where taught that certain things are respectful to women) you are unwilling to budge an inch

Honestly, I couldn't get remotely worked up about this. No, it's not necessary for him to do this things and yes, it's moderately sexist, but jeez, it's sexist in the least harmful and most well-meaning way ever. Insisting on holding a door or helping with your coat, for men of his generation, is basically the old man equivalent of Mrs Doyle in Father Ted becoming anxious if she can't provide a cup of tea. It's not really needed and sometimes mildly baffling but it honestly comes from a good place and it's not a battle I would choose.

Both my grandads were old-school cockney gents born in the 1910s and had absolutely astonishing 'manners' towards women. They would tell other men off for swearing in women's company, even if the women swore themselves. One of them would offer me his seat when he was in his 90s (obviously I didn't accept it and make a 95-year-old man stand, I'm not a monster).

I agree. Older generation -what rot, he’s only 57! He’s not much older than me. I’d tell him to pack it in.

It would make me uncomfortable too, it's infantilising and he won't even walk through a door if you open it? I don't understand how that is meant to be 'good manners'.

I'd be asking for it to stop.

In the kindest way possible, I do think it's your issue.
I find that feminism sometimes dictates to us how we should feel.

Something that anyone would normally appreciate (ie a colleague holding open a door when you're behind them) is now sexist because we are TOLD it is.
'how dare a man infantilise me as such?'
I hope you see what I'm trying to say.
In a way feminism causes just as much divide, because instead of seeing actions, we're seeing sex. So any male that does anything nice for a female is sexist, purely because it's male to female. I think this has doen no favours to the relationship between the sexes. Especially since many of these behaviours would be tolerated or even appreciated if it was done by a female

If the coat thing bothers you particularly, just smile and say thank you but I prefer putting my own coat on.

its old fashioned, but he’s showing he cares and wants to look after you… everyone I love has little idiosyncrasies and it’s those that make them special and leave memories. I think once you accept it for kindness, you might like it op. (If you don’t then you can reconsider)

When he's gone, you'll miss it.
I would let it go, personally.

57!

Bloody hell he's not as old as me!

I find it quite difficult to put a coat on if someone is holding it.

I'd prefer they hold my bag, brolly whatever so I can it easily myself.

Also if they then adjust the shoulders. Urgh!

I wish there were more gentlemen like this in the world. I'm sick of men letting doors shut in my face when out and about. I always hold the door open for others when entering/leaving shops, to just let it go and boof someone in the face is outrageous. I wish I had your FIL!!

Obviously it makes you uncomfortable though, but I would let it go, he won't be around forever and he's being kind. If he was pinching your bum then that would be a totally different matter!

It is sexist though if he would only open a door for a woman and refuses to step through the door if OP opens it for him.

There's a difference between opening a door simply to be kind with it being irrelevant who you are opening the door for and opening a door just because the person behind you has a vagina.

I appreciate kindness, from a man or a woman.
I don't appreciate being infantilised just because I'm a woman, I don't see that as kindness or good manners.

My fil refused to walk through unless he was holding it open as it would be rude!

I think that that was rude of him tbh.

Trying to force you to do what he wants.

I hold doors open for anyone-it's polite.

Refusing to walk through it?🙄

I agree if you don't want help with your coat then tell him.

His desire to show his manners doesn't mean that you should feel uncomfortable.

My children don't have to submit to being kissed or touched by anyone and I taught them by example.

I'd hate them to think that you have to submit to whatever men want because of "manners".

Women’s coats were cut in a more structured way than men’s, and were harder to get on.

I don’t see this as sexist so much as practical.

A lot of these behaviours were really practical- men being bigger and stronger and able to do some things more easily.

Standing whenever a woman stands or enters the room is a bit past it, I can’t see a practical use for that, as is refusing to go through the door you are holding.

There was a time when the men in a meeting room would make sure there were enough chairs out, and carry in the extras. Now they are more likely to network and let the women do it. Manners didn’t all work against us.

@Ohhbaby its nothing to do with him being male at all. I’d feel awkward anyone putting clothing on me apart from myself! And as for holding doors open, I’m happy to walk through any door held open for me by anyone. It was my fil who had the issue walking through a door held open by me and refused to do so. In this case, it was not me who was annoyed but him.

I think he sounds lovely and would be so hurt if you mentioned it. People brought up like that do this sort of thing instinctively. My husband always just slows his pace slightly when approaching a door so I can go through first. It’s ingrained in him. Please please don’t hurt his feelings. It’s not as if he’s patronising you… as I say, it’s just ingrained in him

I remember watching the news when Nicola sturgeon visited Downing Street and David Cameron did the slow ish walk so she could reach the door first! I think it threw her a bit!!

It would be bad manners on your part to take umbrage at this and stop him, or say anything too negative. It's his way of showing you respect and that he cares. My FIL was very similar! I let him carry on as I loved him dearly and these things were important to him for his self respect as a gentleman.

Surely it's only good manners if it doesn't make the other person feel uncomfortable? If it does make the other person feel uncomfortable then I don't see how it can be anything but bad manners to continue.

FIL's 'manners' shouldn't trump what OP does or doesn't feel comfortable with. Especially when it comes to her body such as kisses on the cheek and getting put into her coat like a child.

Oh FFS !! He’s being what used to be called ‘ a gentleman ‘. He sounds lovely. You sound horrible.

It might well be gentlemanly to offer these things to a woman.

But insisting on treating someone in a way which they don't want/appreciate/goes against their wishes is the opposite of gentlemanly.