Trans/pride flag in children's stickers

[timeforacoffeebreak]

This was included in a pack of squishmallow stickers... why???
AIBU or is this totally wrong ??

It's not just Tandora who can't define 'gender', though is it?

Anyone else care to take a shot?

Of course you do, or you wouldn’t tag her. And I’m referring to everyone speaking to her.

Gender, gender, gender. It’s all we seem to talk about these days. But what is gender? Well, I’m going to try to explain, so buckle up, pens at the ready. Here we go.

It’s bollocks.

And reposting again.

I think people should be prepared to defend their arguments, especially if those arguments contain spurious and dangerous ideas. I think it’s important that posters who come on here cheerleading for gender woo are forced to think about exactly what they are supporting. That’s why I mentioned the poster in question- because the way that conversation was going was a perfect case-study of how gender as a concept cannot be defended in a way that makes sense.

I have no need or desire to engage with that poster because they have nothing convincing to say; the job is done.

Do you have anything convincing to say? Can you defend the indefensible?

That’s precisely the problem – people don’t go away forced to think about gender woo. They leave entirely non-engaged because they are spoken to like shit, and no self-respecting person is going to put up with that or get involved in a conversation.

If it’s so crucial the message be understood, it would go a hundred times further if posters engaged in decent conversation.

You aren’t speaking to the creator of gender theory, you’re speaking to average women who you believe to be “brainwashed”. So why are you (and others) talking to them like scum? Every paragraph ends in a sarcastic and condescending jibe. It’s a sure fire way to emotionally shut someone down.

You’re doing it to big yourself up, to spread your self importance and righteousness and to feel like you’ve “won” by achieving the last word. All you “win” is an internet thread that is buried by all the thousands that will stack on top of it, and you lose something that would have been much more valuable to you – having actually engaged another woman onto your views.

No doubt the response will be that you’re under no obligation to “be kind” and women should be done “being kind”, presenting yourself against some kind of warrior against the average woman. Because the average woman isn’t gender critical – in fact more men are gender critical than women (45% to 32% in a recent US poll).

If you wouldn’t speak to your trans-supporting mother, sister, aunt or daughter with so spitefully – even when they dare to debate you – why do it here, when a thread here is arguably reaching more of the people you wish to convince?

They leave entirely non-engaged because they are spoken to like shit

So why are you (and others) talking to them like scum?

If you wouldn’t speak to your trans-supporting mother, sister, aunt or daughter with so spitefully

If you think this is happening, report it. Robust challenge is to be expected in AIBU, and it's not unreasonable to ask posters who are making quite bold claims, to back up what they're saying with some evidence and to explain what it is that they are arguing for. It doesn't make it spite or talking to people like scum, to ask for explanations or evidence. If posters can't explain what they mean, or provide evidence for their assertions, others are going to draw conclusions from that.

I think you’re wrong, and you’re being very defensive.

When I first saw these issues on MN years ago, I was that ‘average woman’ who knew nothing of these issues. I couldn’t understand at first why people had any issue at all with trans women.

However, I never felt as if gender-critical posters talked to me ‘like scum’. I never felt attacked or talked down to. And do you know why? It’s because I didn’t wade into the argument as if I knew all about it. I didn’t pop into threads to call people bigots or to ask purposefully derailing questions. I just learned.

And, to be honest, it didn’t take long. Because it’s pretty bloody obvious. You can see it on this thread too - it’s easy to discredit gender nonsense. People still clinging to it in the face of overwhelming reason and evidence are, at this stage, showing an unpleasant agenda.

By now, the vast, vast majority of posters know the score. So it’s understandable that posters get annoyed with the sealioning and the derailment. Your initial “that’s not the trans flag” may have been a well-intentioned mistake, but by the way you’ve doubled-down and gone for me since I posted to correct you makes me think “Hmmm, what’s this poster’s agenda?”

Other than tone-policing, have you got anything to say?

This is a person who identifies as a six year old girl. @Tandora , I assume you would encourage your daughter who only likes to play with girls to play with this “girl”. After all, who am I or you or anyone to challenge this gender identity?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/transgender-father-stefonknee-wolscht-who-left-family-to-be-a-sixyearold-girl-uses-child-s-play-to-escape-adult-life-a6775051.html

I think of Pride more as embracing non-hetero sexuality’s which is a good thing. Okay that’s not going to mean anything to a child but there’s no harm in it.

Unfortunately it is now also associated with the Trans movement and all its bullshit. I can’t look a rainbow flag in the eye these days.

My agenda was to point out the name of the entire flag and the age demographic of the squishmallow brand – I’ve said that multiple times. It’s very clear and not that deep. I’m not sure why you’re obsessed with it.

Your experience of how you’re spoken to on MN (years ago, you point out; things have changed) is your experience. I know of countless women here who will not engage because of how poorly they are regarded and spoken to. They also say it very plainly on many of the threads started within the last year/18 months.

So what if they wade into arguments, by your opinion, ‘knowing nothing about it’? Maybe they will come away knowing something about it if they aren’t verbally kicked away. It’s very interesting how you only think it’s useful or worthy to engage with posters who are compliant and quiet. What’s wrong with engaging with someone who has something to say in good faith? Even if you think they are entirely wrong? That’s a debate, and it’s done with respect and maturity all the time.

FWIW, Squishmallow age brackets aside, I agree with almost everything you say. But I’m not standing in arms with people who talk to other women as though they’re second class citizens.

I’m leaving this thread now. By all means have your precious last word. Go for it – hope you enjoy basking in the glory.

Here are some other lovely little girls @Tandora on a pride march. So they must be part of the + crowd.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3631413-In-plain-sight

Please tell us which poll this is. Can you post a link to see what it is that you are quoting please .

That's a good point - now that we are on Chat and not on FWR the audience is a bit different and the rules of engagement are a bit different. And gender is complicated - after all, in her book Kathleen Stock carefully described four different meanings of "gender", making the point that people slippy-slide from one meaning to another.

But having said that, how I would debate with my "trans-supporting mother, sister, aunt or daughter" is different from how I would debate with someone who is (as far as I know) a transwoman. Women have common experiences which make a common foundation for argument, that transwomen don't share. And I would expect these days that a transwoman would have a robust idea of what gender is, and what sex is, and what the difference is between them. Otherwise they're putting themselves in a lot of (medical) danger for an outcome that may not be at all what they have been told to hope.

And having said that I might not debate with a transwoman relative at all. "Peace in the family" is also an important value. But I feel OK to debate here, with strangers. As long as it's fair.

As for the "progress pride" I agree that it includes "trans" colours. And I wonder does this ever piss off the bisexuals, whose colours they used to be? And don't UK LGBTetc activists worry about the "progress" bit, which seems like adopting the American notion of "progressive" politics?

There’s also a lovely little girl called Lucy. Lucy loves dressing up and being girly. She might not be free for play dates any time soon though - since Lucy aka David Challenor, former political campaigner/agent and LGBTQ+ activist, is doing a life stretch for kidnapping, raping and torturing another little girl. But let’s not let our phobias and prejudices get in the way of friendship and kindness.

You’re being rather childish and also quite blinkered. I’m not sure what makes you think that only one side of this debate ever gets a bit more than robust! Some examples might help your cause, perhaps.

I’m not ‘obsessed’ with your mistake?! I simply pointed it out and you have gone after me ever since. Quite childish in my opinion.

So what if they wade into arguments, by your opinion, ‘knowing nothing about it’?

Well, because that’s a stupid thing to do?! It doesn’t take many moments of thought to process the ideas, so why would anyone leap in, ill-informed, and take people to task?

You claim to agree with the ideas of those of us defending women and children. But that’s the first time you’ve said that on this thread. Apparently it was more important for you to sow dissent amongst women than to stand with us because, what, some posters were a bit forthright in their language? (Again, examples would help…).

Yeah. I’m not buying it. The cause is too important to be so precious about debate style. How would you have coped with the suffragettes, I wonder?

And, yes, I know you’re leaving the thread etc but I also know you’re reading this! See, we can both be childish.

I know of countless women here who will not engage because of how poorly they are regarded and spoken to.

I quite honestly do not understand how you're trying to claim the moral high ground against GC women on this point.

Given that trying to raise legitimate concerns about trans identifying males is routinely met with cries of bigot, facist, Nazi, etc in the public discourse.

Yes, arguments here on are robust. They have to be, because every trick in the book is deployed by the TRAs to deflect from their validness. If T&Cs are broken, by all means report them. Everyone is supportive of you doing that.

I'm taking my daughter to a county trial in her chosen sport today. In some counties in this country boys who identify as girls have been trialing and representing the county as girls. How is this fair on the girls they have displaced on the squad and in the team?

This is a sport where women can't compete in the best men's teams because it would not be safe.

This flag on this squishum represents (amongst other things) the rights of these trans girls to displace female children in sport.

I'm not sure how any woman can defend this.

I would like @Tandora or @justteanbiscuits to explain how this is right or fair?

To be fair 'it's not what you say, it's the way that you say it' is often the last stand of those who know they've called it wrong.

Pretty much all of my LGB friends gave up on pride years ago. Initially it was due to the event becoming a corporate jamboree and then latterly due to the increasingly not so subtle homophobia towards lesbians exhibited by the gender woo trans mob. I'm not entirely convinced that exposing young kids to a fetish and kink parade complete with naked men, dildos and furries on leads is a good idea either.

“ the average woman isn’t gender critical – in fact more men are gender critical than women (45% to 32% in a recent US poll).”

This is interesting and I do hope that we get a link to the poll.

Because most people have no idea what ‘gender critical’ means. It is also now a meaningless term.

The term was originally ‘gender critical feminist’ and referred to feminists who rejected gender stereotypes and gender roles defining what being female meant in life.

It has been rendered meaningless now because extreme trans rights activists, those making demands some male prisoners should be sent to female prisons and some male athletes should be allowed to compete in female sport categories for example, detached the feminist to include many other groups under the umbrella meaning of the term. This was certainly forced on the original users of the term and done as a hostile move.

The move misused the fact that those feminists also reject the pseudo science principle that humans can change sex. A universally held belief.

The belief that humans cannot change sex is a proven fact. It is not underpinned by any political allegiances, it is material reality and there is absolutely no evidence to even suggest this material reality is about to be changed.

Those extreme activists detached feminist from ‘gender critical feminism’ to discredit feminists and women’s rights campaigners. This most recently have had the impact of now falsely aligning feminists with Nazis and calling feminists Nazis in an attempt to immediately discredit them.

Over the past years those extreme trans rights activists have included groups of people they like to refer to as ‘far right’ or other derogatory terms in that group called ‘gender critical’. However, the groups that the activists are falsely putting under the term are not groups rejecting gender stereotypes and gender roles, far from it. Many embrace gender roles and stereotypes. Therefore the exact opposite of the term.

Yet, people still use the term to describe the majority of people who believe that universal reality that sex cannot change, and they may share a belief that female people and children should be have robust safeguards in place to protect them from harm. All while missing the feminist principles that were part of the original term.

Some people who have a narrow reading selection of media are repeating the term without having the background to know that they are repeating a falsehood.

TL/DR?

The term ‘gender critical’ is a widely misunderstood term and I would be surprised to see it understood enough to be used in a conclusion of a poll.

Just believing the proven and well established scientific fact that humans cannot change sex does not make a person or group of people ‘gender critical’ or even politically aligned with the people who are feminists.

Feminists are motivated by feminist principles to protect all female people and children from harm and oppression. Some of the groups now pushed under that ‘gender critical’ banner by extreme activists, are directly opposed to feminist thinking.

Gender critical is now a meaningless term.

On a side note many feminists now reject even that term ‘gender critical’ because it is now is meaningless as a term to describe their political movement. And really all feminists should have been rejecting those oppressive gender stereotypes in the first place.

TL/DR?
The term ‘gender critical’ is a widely misunderstood term and I would be surprised to see it understood enough to be used in a conclusion of a poll.

yes yes! Plus as we also know, a third of the public even on ‘TERF island’ think a trans woman is a woman who wants to be a man.

Quite

As it was pointed out the other day when trans activist Professor Stephen Whittle was asked to speak at Oxford Brookes what are the chances that the venue would be subject to a social media pile on and that a mob of masked gender critical folk would assemble outside banging drums and preventing people from attending?

I reiterate the call for reporting of posts that

They leave entirely non-engaged because they are spoken to like shit

So why are you (and others) talking to them like scum?

If you wouldn’t speak to your trans-supporting mother, sister, aunt or daughter with so spitefully

I recommend that people read the talk guidelines for the feminist boards and use them as a guide. That also means all those posts claiming that Mumsnet is ‘transphobic’ or ‘anti-trans’ are negative generalisations and should therefore be deleted every single time.

Additionally, that also means that calling posters transphobic and anti-trans, or even ignorant, hateful and a slew of other derogatory remarks is also against the guidelines and are personal attacks.