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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trans/pride flag in children's stickers

1000 replies

timeforacoffeebreak · 07/11/2023 10:09

This was included in a pack of squishmallow stickers... why???
AIBU or is this totally wrong ??

Trans/pride flag in children's stickers
OP posts:
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41
MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:27

Sorry, The Daily Mail is a nasty, right wing propaganda machine. Not interested in anything it has to say.

catduckgoose · 08/11/2023 12:30

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:14

I’m sure there are articles to prove any point you care to on the internet. I’m sorry, I don’t know what spiked is and don’t click unknown links.

It's an article written by Kate Barker, who is CEO of the LGB Alliance, about the problem of trans-identifying males turning up to lesbian dating events and then getting furious and vengeful when asked to leave.

I've pasted the article below.

Jenny Watson’s lesbian speed-dating events were a hit. Two weddings, numerous engagements and countless romantic dalliances are testament to that. The events also offered a welcome boost in trade for the College Arms pub in central London, which had been struggling post-Covid. Having between 30 and 40 lesbians drinking for several hours on a Friday night was obviously great for business. There was, however, a hitch.

A man showed up one evening. He claimed that he identified as a woman and as a lesbian. His appearance and behaviour were disturbing and he had to be reprimanded by Jenny for inappropriate and unwanted touching of a woman in the venue’s toilets.

It need hardly be said that, at a lesbian event, being touched by a man is always inappropriate and unwanted. The man in question was reprimanded by Jenny later that evening and asked not to return. She also added a notice to her website making it clear that this was a women-only event.

Angry at being rebuffed, the trans-identifying man joined a WhatsApp group of activists. They quickly made it their mission to close down Jenny’s event and to destroy her in the process. It was a nasty, sustained and coordinated attack. The activists wrote to Jenny’s boss at a London council where she works as a town planner, claiming that she is a transphobe. They defamed her on social media and threatened other venues where she had organised events. They also wrote to the Meetup app, which Jenny used for ticketing, and submitted countless complaints about the event under aliases. The man who had initially attended the event even sent emails to Jenny in a sinister tone. ‘This isn’t going to go away’, he said. When it all became too much, Jenny came to us at LGB Alliance for help.

In the meantime, a new manager of the College Arms joined the activist WhatsApp group. He immediately made his views about the lesbian events clear, raging: ‘Fucking fuckers if they are using my new pub they are fucking gone, TERFy assholes.’ (TERF is short for ‘trans-exclusionary radical feminist’, a term used to demonise gender-critical women.) The manager wrote that he would replace Jenny’s event with something more ‘inclusive’. What this essentially meant, as he explained, was opening up the event to anyone who identifies as a lesbian – including men.

LGB Alliance met with the manager and another senior member of staff to confront them with the messages. We wanted an apology and an assurance that Jenny’s event could continue. The manager was shocked and even a little embarrassed that we had obtained access to the group chat. Nonetheless, he doubled down on his insistence that no lesbian event could take place if it did not include men.

This is a serious scandal. The College Arms is owned by the UK’s biggest pub company, the Stonegate Group. With over 4,500 pubs in its portfolio, it has considerable influence over the social lives of millions of us around the country. We wrote to Stonegate’s CEO, David McDowall, to tell him about the astonishing treatment of Jenny and her event. We asked him if it is company policy for lesbian groups to be forbidden from gathering at Stonegate venues, unless males are also allowed to attend. We are still awaiting his response.

Of course, no reasonable person can think that Jenny’s speed-dating events should be forced to include men. After all, a lesbian event that invites men is, by definition, no longer a lesbian event.

The bigger question, though, is this: how is it that all manner of not only businesses, but also unions, government departments, universities and branches of the armed forces have bought into the idea that men can be lesbians? Why are the rights of LGB people and women seen as less important than those of trans people?

The answer is unsurprising. Gender-identity ideology has long been accepted into the mainstream, having been aggressively promoted by formerly pro-LGB groups like Stonewall. Stonewall has been especially keen to push the ‘transwomen are women’ dogma and to conflate the meanings of gender and sex. It also misrepresents the law, advising institutions that trans people always have the right under the Equality Act 2010 to access single-sex spaces that align with their gender identity.

These efforts mean that men claiming to be lesbians are often treated as having more rights than actual lesbians. Terrified of falling foul of discrimination law or being branded ‘transphobic’, organisations defer to the views of lobby groups like Stonewall. The result is discrimination against lesbians.

Once upon a time, Jenny’s first port of call when faced with such discrimination would have been Stonewall. Now it is clear that Stonewall and similar groups have turned their backs on the people they were set up to support. Instead, they promote an ideology that is profoundly harmful to lesbians, gay men and bisexuals.

LGB Alliance was formed for this very reason. It is the UK’s only charity dedicated to defending the rights of same-sex-attracted people. We will continue to fight for justice for Jenny and for all those other LGB people who face discrimination.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 08/11/2023 12:33

You don't see that “putting on a dress to feel better” is so insulting to some people?

No, they are playing up to regressive stereotypes. I think it's insulting for men to call themselves bona fide women. How many would pick the menopause, periods, childbirth, sexism, getting paid less, feeling unsafe walking down a dark road. Do they have any clue about any of that and all the shit women have fought for for years? No.

Yet somehow we have a tiny minority of people dictating change in language and getting to do, say, and go anywhere they please? I'm talking about TRA's btw.

TheCadoganArms · 08/11/2023 12:34

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:15

AccidentallyWesAnderson · Today 12:11

Alternatively, Fionaville, perhaps people are simply being allowed to explore who they believe they are? Unlike homosexuals who for years lived in misery because they weren’t allowed to be themselves?

Being homosexual has no bearing on anyone's rights. Being trans does, for women.”

So what’s the answer? Ban transpeople?

Why leap to an hyperbolic conclusion? Nobody has suggested that. What people are highlighting and you seem to be deliberately refusing to take on board are the very real concerns around safeguarding and access to single sex spaces. It is a fact that predatory men will go to extraordinary lengths to get close to and isolate their victims. Self ID massively erodes any existing safeguards and puts a wrecking ball through existing social protocols that help police behavior. Safeguarding by its very nature is exclusionary, it will discriminate against the majority in order to protect vulnerable people against the few with bad intentions. You might be trusting of all those self ID's TIMs accessing woman only spaces but plenty of others are not for many of the reasons already articulated numerous times on this thread. Lots of things we were told would not happen are now happening, it seems that the new narrative is that 'those things' are just one offs or very rare which begs the question that TRAs refuse to answer which is, how many victims are you willing to accept on the alter of trans rights to access woman only areas.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 08/11/2023 12:35

You don't see that “putting on a dress to feel better” is so insulting to some people?

In my head that's pretty neutral, if simplified. Some people put on a dress to feel better. Other people cut their get their genitalia cut off to feel better. (Hint: this doesn't always work.)

Perhaps you could explain what's insulting about it?

Sorry, The Daily Mail is a nasty, right wing propaganda machine. Not interested in anything it has to say.

You're not interested, even if it happens to be true? Because only nasty rightwing journals are willing to write about it? Can you see a problem with that logic?

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:45

AmaryllisNightAndDay · Today 12:35

You don't see that “putting on a dress to feel better” is so insulting to some people?

In my head that's pretty neutral, if simplified. Some people put on a dress to feel better. Other people cut their get their genitalia cut off to feel better. (Hint: this doesn't always work.)

Perhaps you could explain what's insulting about it?”
**
You know full well that it’s far, far more complicated and nuanced than “putting on a dress”. You simply may not want to think about it more deeply because that would mean considering that trans people are human beings, like you, sometimes in turmoil , who deserve as much compassion and understanding as you do.
**
And no, an opinion piece in The Daily Mail is not worthy of consideration.

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:48

@catduckgoose

Thanks for that, food for thought. I really don’t click on links on here, for anything wasn’t being awkward.

Boiledbeetle · 08/11/2023 12:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You are digging your heels in. And you are doubling down to boot.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 08/11/2023 12:49

What hate? Wanting to retain sex based spaces isn't hate. Wanting to keep language the way it is isn't hate.

MavisMcMinty · 08/11/2023 12:50

I don’t understand the hate. (Tandora)

There’s no hate! Sweet zombie Jesus. Boundaries and safeguarding have nothing to do with hate. I like and love quite a few men, but I still don’t want them in women’s toilets, changing rooms, lesbian speed-dating groups and rape crisis centres.

That’s a perfectly reasonable stance and if transwomen - who are men in my opinion - feel sad that’s really not my problem to solve. I’m sure a good therapist or counsellor could work through their feelings, help them reframe their trauma, if only that wasn’t viewed by TRAs as “conversion therapy”.

CostelloJones · 08/11/2023 12:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 12:18

I’m sure there are articles to prove any point you care to on the internet. I’m sorry, I don’t know what spiked is and don’t click unknown links.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12401009/amp/Lesbian-speed-dating-event-sparks-transphobia-row-organisers-insist-adult-human-females-attend-popular-weekly-event.html

Perhaps you could engage with the point now I've posted an article from a national newspaper? Trans rights activism can be deeply homophobic.

Yes, but it’s the Daily Mail 😂🤢

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:52

TheCadoganArms

What people are highlighting and you seem to be deliberately refusing to take on board are the very real concerns around safeguarding and access to single sex spaces.

And what you and others are refusing to take on board is that many other women, myself and my 29 year old daughter (and 84 year old mother) do not share those concerns. both equally valid points of view.

StephanieSuperpowers · 08/11/2023 12:53

I can’t agree on your second point though. I believe it’s far, far more complicated than a man putting on a dress to feel better. It’s that disdain towards and dismissal of someone’s experience that I don’t understand.
You don't see that “putting on a dress to feel better” is so insulting to some people?

It may be insulting to some people. Many women are insulted that they think their feelings make them women and entitled to enter women's spaces. But the insult to women also means increased danger, less dignity and less privacy for women. Why does the insult to feelings matter more?

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:55

MavisMcMinty · Today 12:50

I don’t understand the hate. (Tandora)

There’s no hate! Sweet zombie Jesus. Boundaries and safeguarding have nothing to do with hate. I like and love quite a few men, but I still don’t want them in women’s toilets, changing rooms, lesbian speed-dating groups and rape crisis centres.

That’s a perfectly reasonable stance and if transwomen - who are men in my opinion - feel sad that’s really not my problem to solve. I’m sure a good therapist or counsellor could work through their feelings, help them reframe their trauma, if only that wasn’t viewed by TRAs as “conversion therapy”
**
OK. But your last paragraph is nothing but dismissal and disdain. Trans people are as valid as you, as is every other human.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 08/11/2023 12:55

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:52

TheCadoganArms

What people are highlighting and you seem to be deliberately refusing to take on board are the very real concerns around safeguarding and access to single sex spaces.

And what you and others are refusing to take on board is that many other women, myself and my 29 year old daughter (and 84 year old mother) do not share those concerns. both equally valid points of view.

Oh to be in such a privileged position that you can just shrug and say we'll as it doesn't affect me, my mum and my daughter so fuck other women eh.

CostelloJones · 08/11/2023 12:56

MavisMcMinty · 08/11/2023 12:50

I don’t understand the hate. (Tandora)

There’s no hate! Sweet zombie Jesus. Boundaries and safeguarding have nothing to do with hate. I like and love quite a few men, but I still don’t want them in women’s toilets, changing rooms, lesbian speed-dating groups and rape crisis centres.

That’s a perfectly reasonable stance and if transwomen - who are men in my opinion - feel sad that’s really not my problem to solve. I’m sure a good therapist or counsellor could work through their feelings, help them reframe their trauma, if only that wasn’t viewed by TRAs as “conversion therapy”.

I think you are really underestimating how easy it is to just go to therapy and then make yourself feel different. LOL. If this was the case a really good therapist would be solving a vast majority the worlds problems and not just a trans person being told what they feel is wrong.

have you considered a lot of the trauma might come from societal pressure/treatment of “out of the norm” and not just the fact they feel different to other people?

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:57

StephanieSuperpowers
**
. But the insult to women also means increased danger, less dignity and less privacy for women”

With respect, you can only speak for yourself, as can I. I do not feel any of those things.

MavisMcMinty · 08/11/2023 12:58

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 12:52

TheCadoganArms

What people are highlighting and you seem to be deliberately refusing to take on board are the very real concerns around safeguarding and access to single sex spaces.

And what you and others are refusing to take on board is that many other women, myself and my 29 year old daughter (and 84 year old mother) do not share those concerns. both equally valid points of view.

OK, but there hasn’t been a referendum or anything, and you don’t get to give away other women’s rights to single-sex spaces where we may be vulnerable, like naked or asleep.

Men are women’s only predators. Single-sex spaces are there for our safety, whether you value that or not. We can’t tell who are the good men and who are the bad, so we ban them all.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 12:59

Sorry, The Daily Mail is a nasty, right wing propaganda machine. Not interested in anything it has to say.

How convenient. You are really quite transparent in your lack of good faith engagement here. You are doing everything you can to avoid the point that trans rights activism can be extremely homophobic.

IDontHateRainbows · 08/11/2023 12:59

MavisMcMinty · 08/11/2023 12:58

OK, but there hasn’t been a referendum or anything, and you don’t get to give away other women’s rights to single-sex spaces where we may be vulnerable, like naked or asleep.

Men are women’s only predators. Single-sex spaces are there for our safety, whether you value that or not. We can’t tell who are the good men and who are the bad, so we ban them all.

Is it currently illegal for a male whether trans or not to enter women's toilets?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 13:00

OK, but there hasn’t been a referendum or anything, and you don’t get to give away other women’s rights to single-sex spaces where we may be vulnerable, like naked or asleep.

If there actually was a referendum, polling suggests @MrsSkylerWhite and her bubble are in the minority in being happy with males in female spaces 🤷‍♀️

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/11/2023 13:01

Is it currently illegal for a male whether trans or not to enter women's toilets?

No, it's not covered by criminal law.

MrsSkylerWhite · 08/11/2023 13:01

Oh to be in such a privileged position that you can just shrug and say we'll as it doesn't affect me, my mum and my daughter so fuck other women eh

Privileged? No. After various difficulties in life, now pretty average women, all of us. Who just happen to feel differently to you. It happens.

If you care to read some of my other posts, you’ll see that we’ve all overcome those difficulties. Reducing my argument, because I disagree with you, to me being “privileged”, is laziness of the first order.

CostelloJones · 08/11/2023 13:02

I went to school with someone we will call “George”

George was born Georgina, but always known as George because she was a tomboy. She had a wonderful, supportive and loving family, wanted for nothing and pretty much lived life as a more “masculine” girl - captain of the football team, always popular and invites to parties… but for some reason was still miserable? Took antidepressants through majority of teen years. We turned 18/19 and George told us actually, I’m a trans man. Lives now as a trans man. Dates a wonderful woman, is happy, has a great job. And is an amazing man!

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