To tell you the Scottish Govt are targeting 18 year old girls for egg harvesting

[VestaTilley]

Yes, really.

Surrogacy Concern broke the news on Friday night. I can’t actually believe it.

Over a month to come, the Scottish Govt are asking for egg and sperm donors as young as 18 to come forward in a series of targeted ads on social media and the radio. They’ve expanded IVF provision and - in their own words - have a supply and demand issue.

I’d heard of fertility clinics advertising (bad enough in my view) but for a national Govt to do this to women is staggering. Women can die from complications arising from OHSS, which can be caused by egg donation. A British woman died in 2006 as a result.

The ads don’t mention these risks; it’s all “be kind” “do something amazing”. I cannot actually believe a Govt could be this stupid. They’ve only just apologised for forced adoption!

AIBU?

http://web.archive.org/web/20220528052443/https%3A//www.communistparty.org.uk/28626-2/

Replace the second : with %3A and it works.

I heard the advert. It's for egg and sperm donors. To be honest wasn't the most captivating advert.

What gives anyone the right to use another woman's body either to extract eggs or go through preand labour for them? What gives anyone the right to demand a child? It's exploitation all down the line.

Take this article: https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/russia-warns-nato%E2%80%99s-military-colonisation-ukraine

They openly parrot Putin's line that the war is a necessary response to "NATO aggression" (i.e. countries voluntarily joining), lies about Russian language being banned in the east , and that the territories of Luhansk and Donetsk, ruled by Russian-backed militias (e.g. like Alexsey 'women should be banned from pubs' Mozgovoy) are in fact oppressed breakaway republics etc. No mention of the Ukranians' rights themselves. Elsewhere, since the war started, they have produced a constant stream of material blaming everything on the West, spreading Putinist propaganda about false flags e.g. the bombing of hospitals in Mariupol, refusing to back calls for the Ukranians to be armed at various trade union congresses etc.

I mean the governments of most countries give me the right, by permitting it. I don't have the right to buy a kidney, because that is illegal. I don't have the right to receive a donor egg in Germany, but I do where I live, and in the country where I'm planning to have the treatment. If something is permitted by law, it's a legal right.

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/e/western-enthusiasm-war-not-shared-rest-world

"The imperial alliance suffered another setback a few weeks ago when a resolution before the United Nations calling for Russia to withdraw from Ukrainian territory failed to attract votes from all but a tiny handful of states outside the North Atlantic alliance."

Gloating over a resolution in the UN calling for Russian withdrawal failing to get mass support.

You really think legal rights are equivalent to moral rights?

Since you brought up Putin, do you think the decriminalisation of domestic violence in Russia makes it right?

Do you think the age of consent being 11 in Nigeria means it's right for men to have sex with 11 year old girls?

When it's legal for men to rape or murder their wives, does that make it A-OK with you?

But either everyone can consent to those acts, or no one can.

My point is that it's hella easier to take advantage of someone neurodivergent than someone neurotypical.

Whether consent to X procedure is valid is dependant on whether the patient understands what the procedure entails, what the consequences are of doing it versus not doing it, and whether the patient understands those consequences and is able to make a reasonable assessment of whether the benefits outweigh the risks.

In the case of the would-be egg donor, I don't think that the benefits to the egg donor can ever outweigh the risks. The benefits to the recipient shouldn't be considered because it's not the recipient who takes the risks associated with donation.

Even if we say "but choosy-choice!", I don't think that vulnerable women, e.g. autistic or otherwise disabled, are well-equipped to make that choice, just as they are not well-equipped to "choose" to allow a drug dealer to use their living room as a warehouse to store class A drugs. They perceive a benefit from egg donation, that of feeling useful, helpful, approved of, wanted by someone, accepted by someone that a neurotypical woman wouldn't perceive because the NT woman would either get that emotional desire met elsewhere or wouldn't crave approval as strongly because of not being treated like a burden or a freak since birth. That perceived benefit is not actually real because the feeling of being wanted is illusory. Any expressed warmth from the clinic staff is conditional on the egg donor being useful and will vaporise as soon as the eggs are taken, just as my ex's "good girl" lasted only as long as he was horny. It's professionals saying what they have to to get what they want from the donor, it's not real social acceptance. Consent based on illusory social acceptance isn't consent at all if the egg donor is unable to recognise that the professionals are faking the kindness. And I suspect that many autistic women, especially younger ones, don't recognise the fakery. I didn't recognise that my ex was using me and was saying what I wanted to hear in return for leaving me bleeding.

The Morning Star is a newspaper. It is not the Communist Party of Britain.

No, I don't think that. I was being facetious. But I think the fact that most countries allow egg donation but prohibit child sex abuse and domestic violence demonstrates that they are not widely seen as equivalent.

I'm not extracting anyone's eggs. I'm just accepting those that have been willingly donated.

The Morning Star is still a newspaper. It is still not the Communist Party of Britain.

"I'm not orally raping anyone. I'm just ramming my dick down a throat that's been willingly offered" without thinking too hard about whether that's an OK thing to do to anyone, what doing so says about my attitude towards putting others at risk, and what might motivate someone to tolerate this behaviour and why their motives might indicate that this person needs therapy instead of a throat-fucking.

I've also been through what you have in terms of neurodivergence, desperation to be loved, and allowing men to sexually exploit me. I don't think that means I should be prohibited from donating eggs, if that was what I decided to do.

I don't accept your representation of how clinics operate.

You know perfectly well that they run it.

I don't accept your representation of how clinics operate.

It's mostly how humans operate. I walk into the office, guy at the next desk says "you look lovely today", I say "what do you want?", and he replies "how did you know that I want something?" The clue was when you paid me a compliment, Dave.

Have you never been buttered up by a salesperson or recruiter only for their manner to cool markedly once they get you to sign?

In fact, it's mostly how most sentient lifeforms operate. Most of the time, if DCat approaches me and purrs, it's because he wants food, playtime, or to be let out. It's rare that he comes for a cuddle.

That was, past-tense, the Communist Party of Great Britain, and they transferred the paper to a reader's coop some time ago anyway.

I was linking the Communist Party of Britain: note the missing "Great". Different Communist Party.

You may now start with the Judean People's Front jokes.

I'd hate to live in your reality. Or the reality of most people here. I've been the victim of sexual assault and exploitation, and don't deny the reality of male sexual violence, but to live in a world where every penis is a weapon and an immediate threat, constant vigilance because you all expect to be raped at any moment, all women are just victims with no autonomy, no one does anything nice ever, they are just either desperate to be loved or trying to gain some advantage.

If my egg donor prefers to pay for her holiday next year by donating eggs, rather than slogging for a month in a cafe for example, what's wrong with that anyway? We're all exploited under capitalism. Why do certain feminists think that sex work, egg donation or surrogacy are worse than other types of labour. Working on a building site can be hazardous. Should we ban women from doing that too?

Ah, yes, "willingly". You don't give a damn about why, or the level of coercion that's involved, or the harm it does. A choosy-choice anti-women type, in short. Probably the same sort who thinks prostituted women are all Happy Hooker types unless they're covered in bruises and needle marks 24/7.

Nope. I'm not getting anyone confused. The Morning Star is in reality controlled by the CPB.

You've failed to provide any evidence of coercion or harm. Just lurid speculation.

I don't think sex workers are 'happy hookers.' I just think they are workers, entitled to earn their living legally, to have a safe working environment, to be respected and to organise.

I don't understand - isn't this with the intention of supporting infertile couples? I mean, aren't women entitled to three rounds of IVF on the NHS?

Jesus Christ, this whole thread talks about the harm.

Not that you're going to read any of it, as you demonstrated with the links about transwomen rapists.

Prostution is paid rape. The victims shouldn't be penalised, the johns and pimps should, as in the Nordic model.

My libfem/TRA card is full - BINGO!

Source?

We're all exploited under capitalism.

It doesn't dawn on you that this is a bad thing?

Why do certain feminists think that sex work, egg donation or surrogacy are worse than other types of labour.

Because it commodifies women's bodies in a way that actual work doesn't.

We can't expect men to treat us like people if we declare that women's bodies are for sale like objects are!

all women are just victims with no autonomy

That's not what I said, at all. What I said was that a decent man would not exploit a woman's body. What I said was that some women, who are vulnerable, say "yes" for very unhealthy reasons and a decent person wouldn't take advantage of that.

but to live in a world where every penis is a weapon and an immediate threat, constant vigilance because you all expect to be raped at any moment

This is Situational Awareness 101. Anyone, of either sex, pays attention to their surroundings in public.

no one does anything nice ever, they are just either desperate to be loved or trying to gain some advantage.

This is human nature. You yourself said "we're all exploited under capitalism". Yet you don't see how that capitalism is the big-scale outcome of individuals trying to gain some advantage?

Decades on the left.