Why do you allow your boys to fight/roughhouse

[Pooooochi]

DS is 7. I've recently noticed after school, at parties etc that most of the parents of his classmates smile & allow boys to be always punching at each other, wrestling.

If you let your kids fight, why do you?

We've always been absolutely zero tolerance on this sort of aggressive behaviour so DS just doesn't do it at all now - to the extent other adults have commented.

However, it seems like socially it means his peers sometimes push him around, they know he wont fight back. I find this sad. Why don't want a world full of aggressive men who jump at a fight any chance they get, so why do we allow it in little boys

@sunglassesonthetable who said my opinion was fact? Not me.

And you've not given any reason for your, own opinion. Just saying you don't let your boys roughhouse because we're in a patriarchal society doesn't answer why you actually do.

Is it perhaps because you think that's just how boys are? And if you do think that, do you never wonder why they're that way?

My DD8 and DS9 do it all the time, they seem to have fun wrestling each other to the ground. It's definitely healthier than bickering.

I like that DD gets to do it with her brother. Her girly playdates are quite sedate whereas boys are always playfighting, energetic and giggling away. I've never seen actual fighting.

Once again I'd say there a a difference between physicality and violence.
I agree, but what the OP has outlined in her posts isn't just physical play. It's low level violence that is accepted and normalised by some parents of boys.

Mathanxiety hits the nail on the head here:
The most aggressive and uninhibited boys and let's face it, the boys least regulated by parents, are allowed to gatekeep the boy club. They get to define who is cool and who is a wimp. This is the nursery school of toxic masculinity.

This is the problem.

The problem isn't that some parents allow some age-appropriate physical play within a family environment of boundaries and respect, nor is it that some children enjoy physical play.

The issue is that the parents who teach their sons ideas of toxic masculinity from a young age end up creating sons who will set the agenda and dictate what the boy club is.

• These are the boys who initiate low level violence that others are expected to accept.
• These are the boys who turn appropriate physical play into pushing and shoving and tripping people over.
• These are the boys who think anyone who doesn't want to do their thing (usually girls and less aggressive boys) should make way for the mighty crowd of rowdy boys who need to dominate the space

• These are the boys who laugh at people being hurt in low level violent 'play'
• These are the boys who mock other boys for having different play preferences, often based on sexism they've been taught that not being a "boy boy" is side, effeminate, girly, weak.
• These are the boys other boys quickly realise they ought to stay on the right side of because otherwise they'll be the ones being mocked and bullied.
• These are the boys who set the agenda and when someone objects they twist the situation and claim that the victim "can't take a joke"
• These are the boys who, when a teacher intervenes because as an adult it's obviously not acceptable, they say "but sir it was just banter... Wasn't it Timmy?" as they look at Timmy and make it clear that the only correct answer is for Timmy to pretend that it's all banter and he isn't bothered.
• These boys are the reason that other boys in the group won't want to talk about their feelings or say when their feelings have been hurt, because boys don't cry, gotta toughen up, don't want to be a wimp do you

Men don't get to 18 and suddenly develop behaviours associated with toxic masculinity. They're brought up in a society that, to a greater or lesser degree, teaches them that's how men and boys should be.

who said my opinion was fact? Not me.

Read back. You make definitive statements.
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And you've not given any reason for your, own opinion. Just saying you don't let your boys roughhouse because we're in a patriarchal society doesn't answer why you actually do.*

I do let my kids roughhouse. And I've also said why. You're not making sense or you don't read what people have written.
*
Is it perhaps because you think that's just how boys are? And if you do think that, do you never wonder why they're that* way?

That's not what I think. And I don't think it's because they're boys. ( I haven't even said that. )
I think it's because they're children.

The issue is that the parents who teach their sons ideas of toxic masculinity from a young age end up creating sons who will set the agenda and dictate what the boy club is.

Well I think we're talking about different things here.

I allow my kids to fight/roughhouse in way which I don't think is the gateway to some sort of anti social toxic masculinity. In fact I think it's probably the opposite and quite protective in terms of establishing respect and boundaries.

You might be talking about some sort of low level violence that would also be unacceptable in my view.

In which case many of the replies on here are , like mine, irrelevant as I'm referring to rough house, play fighting not teaching my DC ideas about "toxic masculinity from a young age."

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just it's debatable whether this thread has been about that.

.

Playfighting is fine, playfighting with my brother is one of the happiest memories of my childhood, we had a whole routine for it (on our knees going round in circles until we tackle the other one) and we had a game called anklesnatcher - when one of us was going up the stairs the other would come up behind and grab an ankle so we'd fall down (not down the stairs, just down onto the bit of stairs we were at). Great fun. And playfighting with my friends at school, which the school didn't like so we were always getting into trouble for it.

I roughhouse with my children, both my daughter and my son, I do believe it is good for them so long as consent and boundaries are clear.

Actual violence is not good though, I don't tolerate that.
I've noticed the "boys' colours/games/toys" thing has started with my 5 year old DS, learnt from his friends at nursery, in my opinion that's where the issues with masculinity start from, thinking certain things are only for boys. I'm trying to nip it in the bud but its hard fighting against peer pressure.

I have 2 boys - one is a toddler and one is in Reception. They do love to wrestle/play fight - they have their own name for it - and we let them, within reason. I find it helpful for teaching them about consent - we’ve told them they have to ask before initiating it and when one of them doesn’t want to play we use it as an opportunity to talk about how you can only play wrestling when the other person wants to.

My two cents - for what they’re worth - on the wider topic is that as a society we’ve done ok-ish at telling girls they can be whatever they want to be and do whatever they want to do, but we haven’t extended that same freedom to boys. There’s limited acceptance for more feminine boys or boys with interests that aren’t traditionally masculine. We still teach boys that femininity is inferior.

Both my daughter who is 10 and my boy who is now 8 rough house. My daughter even with other girls not just other boys.

we’re mammals and if you watch any other type of mammal, kittens, puppies, tiger cubs it’s all part of development.

I don’t think people are as good at teaching the boundaries as try think they are though. At work I see ever increasing numbers of children who don’t know when to stop. The carry on when the other participants clearly want them to cease, or when they’ve been asked to stop by teachers.

Same. I work in an infant school, I see increasing amounts of kids who constantly grab hold of and push each other. When they are sitting on the carpet for stories or instructions on an activity they can’t keep their hands off each other! They Will literally roll on top of each other!
Parents can kid themselves that it only happens in their own house but I’m afraid we see it every day.

HippoStraw
That's my experience too. I've also seen enough situations with older boys to have limited patience for "but it was banter miss" and "banter" seems to include anything and everything from unwanted pushing and shoving, pranks, jumping on people from behind, mocking someone and expecting them to man up and take it.

I don't think those boys suddenly became like that as pre-teens and teens. They've been taught it's acceptable and had the behaviour minimised from a young age.

Equally the other boys haven't woken up one morning thinking they'll keep their feelings and discomfort to themselves. They've also been taught from a young age by society that it's easier to say nothing and laugh along because that's what boys do.

That's my experience too. I've also seen enough situations with older boys to have limited patience for "but it was banter miss" and "banter" seems to include anything and everything from unwanted pushing and shoving, pranks, jumping on people from behind, mocking someone and expecting them to man up and take it.

The key word in there was " unwanted" wasn't it?

DCs (both sexes) do playfight and roughhouse at home. They wrestle and tickle etc.

When my DS (7) goes to school he doesn't do anything remotely close to rough housing. I've taught him it is unacceptable, and to tell the teacher if there is anything happening he's not happy with. He has done so a few times and absolutely nothing has happened. Nothing.

He came home from school one day with a carpet burn because he had been sitting in the carpet area and another child had run over and leapt on him to wrestle him. DS told the teacher and the other child was moved slightly further away on the carpet. Absolutely nothing else said or done about it. I was furious. The messages about consent, use of force etc he gets at home and at school are not consistent.

The key word in there was " unwanted" wasn't it?
Yes. And like I've said in many previous posts, the big issue is that boys are taught from a young age to laugh along, not say they don't like it because unfortunately some parents teach their boys that hitting, punching, pulling people to the floor is all boys will be boys stuff, and then call boys wimps for not wanting to do it. There's adults all over this thread saying it's just boys being boys, boys are wimps if they don't like it, if a boy doesn't want to play like that he's a target for bullies.

The culture setters are often the louder boys who engage in play that normalises low level violence.
This is a huge problem for boys who have different play preferences and would rather abstain from any physical play or would rather have appropriate physical play that doesn't involve running up to people and yanking them on the floor, pushing, shoving, hitting etc as OP outlined.

Just because a boy seems to be laughing along with something, doesn't mean he is enjoying it.
Just like just because a girl laughs along when her peers are teasing her, doesn't mean she thinks it's funny.

Like I've said before, the problem isn't that some children like physical play.
Like I've said before, the problem is that some parents are so obsessed that boys need to push and shove to be boys, and those boys go into playgrounds and set the agenda, which is hugely problematic.

Like I've said before, the problem isn't that some children like physical play.
Like I've said before, the problem is that some parents are so obsessed that boys need to push and shove to be boys, and those boys go into playgrounds and set the agenda, which is hugely problematic.

I can see that's problematic. Parents who have an idea of a behavioural norm that is narrowly limited, is problematic.In any
direction.

The expectation of being tough, hard or physical as a definition is very toxic, I can see that.

"Banter" is the excuse for so much crap.

But as my experience of managing kids is more or less limited to mine and my own circle, I'm not going to stop them rough housing with each other because other parents inflict damaging views on their own kids.

I suppose in the same way I can moderate my own relationship with alcohol but appreciate that lots of people get t very wrong.

Very well explained.
The issue here is not making the connection.
I see this every day. My DS is a teen now.
I am really happy "roughplay" was never allowed I'm our house, there was zero tolerance in fact. It teaches respect.
It teaches clear messages. It teaches boundaries. No is no. You cannot teach boundaries giving mixed messages.

DS was brought up the same as my DDs and I always felt an exception. I showed the same rules, and allowed them to choose their own interests regardless of their gender lets say football, dancing or playing a musical instrument. I talked to them when they were sad, and encouraged always to talk their problems. I didn't let him ro "man up" when he was upset as I wouldn't do it with the girls. I talked and gave them comfort.

As mentioned in a past post my DS is now a very assertive teen. He walks away from fights that start between boys and says "this is stupid" and have a few who follows then. He is happy in himself, explains wrong with him. He is still affectionate with us.
He doesn't lock himself in his room or is angry/ moody. He likes sports, playing a musical instrument, hangs out with friends and still do things with us.
He doesn't put up with "banter" and stand up for whatever he believes. I know he is my son and I might sound biased, but he is a pleasure to live with.
There is a documentary in Netflix about toxic masculinity where grown men exactly talk about this. It's the expectation since they are toddlers to accept this as normal. It's not.
It doesn't teach anything good. It only confuses them.

I'm genuinely surprised at the people who say they didn't playfight as children. It seems like such a universal experience to me. I'm female. When I was a child I would playfight with my cousins and friends - all also female. We'd roll over each other, grapple with each other, pretend to be cats and pounce on each other... No one was trying to hurt anyone else and if someone was hurt (say a nail caught someone's skin accidentally) play would stop immediately while the hurt party was consoled and the one who hurt them apologised. Then play would resume.

When I was younger than that I'd also playfight with my dad. Obviously he was "throwing his punches" and never actually hurt me. I absolutely loved it and it's one of my fondest childhood memories of my dad.

I have two daughters. The oldest is nearly three, and already she loves playfighting with both me and DH. She jumps all over us and we gently tackle her down, or we chase her round the house saying "I'm going to get you!", and then she turns and starts chasing us! The younger one is too little yet, really, but she's already started trying to flop on us like her sister does. I assume, when they're both older, they'll playfight with each other.

And adults do playfight with each other too. Only men, really, perhaps due to nature and perhaps due to conditioning, but they do. My brothers are in their mid-late thirties and stil tackle each other on occasion.

It just seems so normal to me so the shock really seems to have come out of nowhere.

sunglassesonthetable
I get what you are saying.

Like I said you thread, the issue isn't parents allowing their children to play together in a consensual and physical way in a family environment. You know your children and know your family culture.

I'm not against physical play either. Kids of both sexes should be able to have fun physical play. Age appropriate physical play is good for both sexes.

What I'm against is the normalised boys will be boys pushing, shoving, pulling each other over, etc where the aim of the "game" is to push/hit/grab/pull over/knock over in itself. This sort of behaviour is almost only normalised and promoted in boys.

You don't tend to see girls in the playground playing a game of "let's see if we can run up to someone who isn't expecting it and pull them to the floor" or "let's push someone into someone else/the wall because it's funny".

It's pertinent to ask why because for every person who is thinking roughousing is about age appropriate and consensual physical play, there's others who use phrases like "roughousing" to minimise a pattern of behaviour that is very problematic for boys.

The children all in a playground, all with very different play preferences, expectations and attitudes is totally different to a home environment. It isn't a home environment. I don't want my DC getting to 10/11/12 and falling into the banter trap because the playground has been like Lord of the Flies.

It's not offer I'm surprised by threads on mumnset but this one really has!

My kids both male and female have always play fought. In fact they still do and some are in their 30s!

It was always clear that when someone didn't want to play anymore and said "No more" that no means NO!

I thought everyone did it, especially when younger. You only need to look at wee puppies and kittens to imagine that most mammals do.

Wow I need to do some reflection on this and look at some studies.

to be clear, I’m talking about wrestling/ rough housing. Punching, hitting etc is different and not ok in my book.

Same! I'm talking about willing in participants who are having fun and laughing. Not bullying!!

I agree with this.

Also @CoalCraft 's post.

Whereas I completely disagree with
I am really happy "roughplay" was never allowed I'm our house, there was zero tolerance in fact. It teaches respect.

My siblings and I wrestled and used physical play with each other. My (now adult dc) were lucky enough to have a very similar upbringing. We, and they are all very respectful.

It teaches clear messages. It teaches boundaries. No is no. You cannot teach boundaries giving mixed messages.

Well, I wouldn't say there are any mixed messages there. Anymore than saying 'yes, it's okay to stay in your PJs whilst slobbing around at home but no it's not okay to wear your PJs when you go to school' or 'yes, that gravy was delicious, I'm going to get a spoon or a piece of bread to make sure I get every last drop off my plate at home, but I won't do that when out in a posh restaurant' and 1001 other examples. dc are more than capable of knowing what you might do to your sister or brother is not the same way you might play with someone you don't have that close relationship with.

I agree OP.

Play fighting/bundling always ends in tears. It makes me cringe if parents watch, then have to scoop away their winging, crying child.

I don't let my son and daughter do it. Hard stance on not physically hurting each other - both assertive, popular kids.

I'm a girl and I used to play-fight with my brother when I was little, and I remember boys and girls 'rough-housing' at school. Obviously some kids don't like it and they don't have to engage in it. But I think it's pretty normal and harmless for little kids to play-fight and wrestle for fun. It's a completely natural behaviour - baby animals do it too! I think it's one of the ways that kids learn boundaries and how to let off steam safely; everyone has some degree of natural aggression/competitiveness in them and a weekly sports class isn't going to be enough of an outlet for everyone. Playfighting is one of the ways they learn self-control, in fact - working through that physical behaviour in a way that's fun and doesn't actually hurt anyone and where everyone consents. Obviously, they need to be taught that not everyone likes this and that you mustn't try to make kids play like that if they don't like it, but I wouldn't put a blanket ban on physical games like that.

Also, lots of kids do some sort of contact sport (in fact, sports like rugby or football are compulsory at a lot of secondary schools) and learning to be physically robust without injuring each other or going too far is very useful for that.

Obviously you're entitled to set whatever rules you like for your children - if you don't want them doing it, that's totally up to you. I don't think you should be judging other parents for having a different view on this, though.

I'm interested to know what you think about kids doing martial arts classes like judo or karate - obviously there's more discipline involved but it's still physical combat, basically rough-housing but with rules! The point is to overpower another person. Would you also find that inappropriate? (I'm not playing devil's advocate here or looking for a debate, I'm genuinely interested to know!)

Why wouldn't you as long as all kids involved are enjoying it and want to do it and they aren't in serious danger of causing injury or damage to anything?

I think it's a good (for both girls and boys obviously) for the following reasons:

1. Great exercise
2. Teaches them about their body and what it's capable of
3. Teaches them to not be too afraid of physical pain (I try to teach my kids that physical pain to an extent is a part of life. It's injury that we need to worry about).
4. It teaches them about setting and respecting boundaries. As soon as one child says no or stops enjoying it the others have to stop.
5. Good outlet for energy

Neither of mine are massively into it but sometimes they have tons of fun roughhousing with each other or me or dh and I think it's especially good for DD who is by nature very gentle and a bit timid.

I think, what's more important than a blanket ban is that

1. The message isn't that roughhousing is ok for boys but not for girls
2. All kids enjoy it and are able to set rules and boundaries around it
3. They also know and enjoy other types of games and how to fun
4. If someone doesn't enjoy it and doesn't want to take part that's also perfectly fine

When DS's Primary school clamped down on rough play a number of parents complained, without fail these parents all had boys, and their complaint was that it was natural for boys to play like this. Funnily enough they were also the parents first in the queue to see the HT if their child had been hurt at school.

I didn't complain as I had had enough of my child getting hurt in the crossfire. He didn't join in these games, but would sometimes be the target of 'fun' for the other boys and would get pushed over, punched "playfully" etc. Parents would apologise to me but would then say 'what can we do, boys will be boys'! Used to infuriate me.

So for all the parents on here saying their child knows the boundaries, concept of consent etc, there are a lot of parents who just see it as normal, say it is part of development, 'boys will be boys' and let it carry on without actual parenting, without teaching boundaries.

If anyone is involved with Secondary schools they will know behaviour is at an all time low, it is horrendous, partly fuelled by the excuse of 'boys will be boys', which is in no way helped by the likes of Andrew Tate.

For all the parents who say their son wouldn't do this, some must be, because of the scale of the problem in schools. It is not one or two feral children from dysfunctional families.

Remember for the most of us, our children have a very different life than we did, the impact of social media cannot be ignored. They are bombarded with images of violence (both on 24/7 news but immersive violent video games), encouraged to do 'pranks' on unwilling participants, film their exploits. So the 'harmless' barging into someone, or jumping onto an unwilling target can be filmed and shared round the school in a number of minutes, to add to that person's humiliation.

So much more awareness of this is needed by parents. Don't blithely think your DC aren't involved