Why do you allow your boys to fight/roughhouse

[Pooooochi]

DS is 7. I've recently noticed after school, at parties etc that most of the parents of his classmates smile & allow boys to be always punching at each other, wrestling.

If you let your kids fight, why do you?

We've always been absolutely zero tolerance on this sort of aggressive behaviour so DS just doesn't do it at all now - to the extent other adults have commented.

However, it seems like socially it means his peers sometimes push him around, they know he wont fight back. I find this sad. Why don't want a world full of aggressive men who jump at a fight any chance they get, so why do we allow it in little boys

The problem is sunglassesonthetable that consent becomes a bit of a grey area when the dominant culture is that the right way to be a boy is to let your friends slide into you, grab you, pull you to the floor etc and you're expected to laugh along because it's funny and what boys do.

There's a line between physical play and the sort of low level violent play that is normalised by some parents.

I've spoken to a surprising number of boys around 8-12 who actually don't find it funny and don't enjoy it, but they feel they have to go along with it. If a boy is in a friendship group where the loudest boys are ring leaders and all about "banter" and they hear other boys parroting the crap some of their parents believe (that boys who don't like being jumped on are wimps, wet, a target for bullies etc) then it can be easier for them to ignore their own boundaries for the sake of fitting in. I wouldn't say those boys have consented. I'd say they've been coerced and pressured. I'm sure the ring leader's parents would insist that all the boys love their son starting that sort of play.

Tbh @mugboat

It was the 'weird ' and the 'WTF' that I found a bit salty.

Clearly there are different approaches to parenting.

also, when you wrote this, not one person had posted any scientific explanation... just a load of anecdotes about how they enjoy it, their kids enjoy it, it's fun or normal... etc...

If don't understand why someone enjoys something, simply replying with "I enjoy it" doesn't really "answer" my lack of understanding about why.

Since you posted, one person has posted an academic article so I may go and read this now...

Ok

quite a few assumptions here... so are you suggesting it's a screen-filled childhood or playfighting and nothing else?

No, society has become so removed from natural evolutionary developmental processes thanks to the modern world, particularly due to screens that influence us heavily, and so we've lost sight of what's normal development.

It appears to now be the norm to think that play fighting is bad. It's part of how childrens social interaction skills develop. Adults do have to set limits as necessary.

Same for my daughters plus all other non physical stuff too of course such as art, playing the piano, dressing up, playing with lego, playing with sylvanians..

Hard to read the grammar here but I boys can do all this too. My boys have had sylvanians and are extremely arty.

This is not a boy girl thing, this is human development.

Since you posted, one person has posted an academic article so I may go and read this now...

I struggled to choose one there are so many out there.

I wouldn't say those boys have consented. I'd say they've been coerced and pressured. I'm sure the ring leader's parents would insist that all the boys love their son starting that sort of play.

All the more reason for learning boundaries and consent.

I have no doubt that all children are different. My kids have always tended to rough house with each other.

It's much more difficult moving outside the family group and I am less comfortable with that unless I know the other children very well.

And as it happens I see that echoed in my kids. They are much less physical with children outside the family.

thank you for eloquently articulating what was troubling me... I didn't doubt some people like it but I have always assumed most don't.

This reminds me of football culture... so many boys do not like playing or watching football but feel pressured into it to get along with their peers... on this score I know many parents of boys who kept signing their kid up to football clubs and taking their kids to matches until they eventually started to get into it.

I don't 'let' my dc playfight
but sometimes for my (and their) sanity you need to chose your battle.
we have 3 main rules - no hurting, no damage, no getting lost

it's a lot better now that they are older.

Hard to read my grammar? Well excuse me for not forming correctly spelt and punctuated sentences whilst typing on my phone.

My response was to someone who accused me of providing my children with a sanitised/screen-ridden childhood because they don't bloody play fight.

No doubt there's grammatical errors and typos here too but I invite you to ignore these.

It's also a really good way to teach children ideas about consent.

Do you consent to this game? Are you happy to play? And get them to make sure they are sure.

Teaching consent to children is an important element of social-emotional learning. Consent in broad terms relates to the permission to engage in an activity with another person, or for something to happen.

This idea becomes more important to understand and obtain when children’s play involves physical contact.

Consent is constantly being sought and rejected throughout the day, often in very subtle ways For example, someone may reach their hand out towards another person as an invitation to hold hands, and the response of consent may be ‘yes’ by holding hands, or ‘no’ by not. When children are engaging, or would like to engage, in rough and tumble or physical play, the initial forms of consent may also be subtle. Consent may have evolved as a natural extension of the initial play that was taking place, and thus no explicit consent with each other was offered.

However, as a caregiver it is important to ensure that all children involved in the play understand the potential outcomes, boundaries and agreement for the play:

(See here to continue:) appetitetoplay.com/physical-activity/tips-ideas/consent-play

That site also has lots about risky play which is really important for the development of self regulation and confidence.

Hard to read my grammar

The paragraph that relates to could be read as - children of both sexes do art and play with Sylvianians or just the girls.

Hopefully the former.

The key for me is does it feel cooperative and controlled, like giving a toddler swings between adults or playing that they’re trying to escape and capturing them again with lots of giggles? Or does it feel like something uncontrolled and competitive?

OK one last post from me. Won't be coming back to this thread as I'll be here all night.

1. This is alien to me from my own childhood and my own parenting
2. I probably shouldn't have been so aggressive in my replies - sorry about that... I think something has touched a nerve, probably as regards how the boys in my daughters' classes behave and disrupt their lessons... BUT this is not the fault of the posters here and many of you have been rather polite and decent in your replies to me despite my edgy tone.
3. Enjoy your evening :)

I mentioned these in relation to my daughters because I wanted to mention non physical play too. I strongly believe children should play with whatever they want 😊

So those with daughters who play fight do you go to the park and see them play fight with their female peer group, do you join in and do dads join in too, as it is so good for their development. And if they do play fight in public, up to what age?

sunglassesonthetable
I agree with you about learning boundaries and consent. I don't believe that the sort of low level normalised violet play is the way to do that though, especially in group settings outside of the family.

Hell, look how many men don't seem to understand consent Vs reluctantly going along with something because life is easier. But people think that 5/6/7 year olds should be able to work out that their friend who is laughing along with the game might actually be hating every minute of it but he doesn't want to be called a wimp and mocked like someone else was last week.

There needs to be a radical shake up in the way boys are parented where parents aren't filling some boys' heads with toxic ideas about what "boys" are like, and what makes boys wimpy and weak.

It's an adult problem in my opinion, not a boy problem.
There's too many adults who don't draw a line between age-appropriate, consensual physical play and the sort of normalised low-level violence and toxic attitudes to boyhood. Then we wonder why those boys turn into teens who think bullying is ok because it's "banter" and men who go on to teach their own boys damaging sexist shit like boys aren't wimps, real boys don't cry, man up, don't be like that soft lad, if you don't toughen up you'll be picked on.

@crumblingschools
dh would 'playfight' with our dc, in pools, on holiday, until they were young teens I'd guess ? They'd try to "drown" him and he'd "throw" them into the air to hit the water, then they'd come back for more, over and over again.*
We have dds and ds

*As I know there are plenty on MN who always look for things to pick at in any post - this would obviously be when there was either no-one else in the pool or a huge space around them

Neither my son or my daughters play fight with their peers/friends. They playfight with me, my husband and their siblings. They would all play flight with each other in the park and I would join in too.

I can't say what age they play fight until but DD is almost 5 and today she and a little girl she'd only just met in the park were dualing for control of ice castle - this included hitting sticks against each other and jumping on top of one another wrestling. So yeah, she play fights out of the house.

She does generally like quite physical, sensory heavy activity - lots of jumping, squeezing, throwing, climbing type stuff etc. More so than DS in some ways. She's always asking for squeezee hugs and to be thrown on the bed. When putting herself to sleep she needs time to throw herself on her bed and thump her legs up and down.

Excellent posts, @LolaSmiles and @mugboat.

The most aggressive and uninhibited boys and let's face it, the boys least regulated by parents, are allowed to gatekeep the boy club. They get to define who is cool and who is a wimp. This is the nursery school of toxic masculinity.

Parents who teach non violence are accused of doing their boys a disfavour because these alleged wimps will be no match for the boys whose parents allow them to display their privilege.

Once again I'd say there a a difference between physicality and violence.

Physicality is a huge positive in the lives of many people. You do them a huge disservice if you only associate it with violence and aggression.

The most aggressive and uninhibited boys and let's face it, the boys least regulated by parents, are allowed to gatekeep the boy club. They get to define who is cool and who is a wimp. This is the nursery school of toxic masculinity.

In your experience. I can't say that it is mine.

Funnily enough me and my sister used to rough house all the time.
My dd and ds have never done it. Not sure why.
When ds has friends over it turns into one big wrestling session with all the boys.

Then we wonder why those boys turn into teens who think bullying is ok because it's "banter" and men who go on to teach their own boys damaging sexist shit like boys aren't wimps, real boys don't cry, man up, don't be like that soft lad, if you don't toughen up you'll be picked on.

Why this sort of shit ⬆️ as quoted above, is anyway comparable to allowing my kids to rough house, play fight and enjoy their own physicality within the boundaries we set as a family is a bit of a mystery.

I think it's equally damaging to limit and suffocate their natural responses to being around each other and enjoying and playing in each others company. And yes, like young lion cubs .

Equally if they didn't want to play fight I wouldn't be expecting them to do it. They can play how they want.

I'm pleased to say that the boundary setting thing appears to have rubbed off as they don't seem to do it outside their family . Maybe because on reflection that is a family
boundary.

I don't even know where to start with this. Answers a lot of questions about why we currently have such a problem with toxic masculinity though