Page 4 | Cultural manners

Wonkasworld · 27/10/2023 10:13

GnomeDePlume · 27/10/2023 09:37

Etiquette and good manners are two different things.

Etiquette is a set of rules which are really arbitrary and particular to a social group - pardon/sorry/what may each be rude or polite depending on the social group.

Good manners are about making others feel comfortable or considered.

Good manners may mean following etiquette so as not to make another person feel uncomfortable. Sometimes etiquette needs to be put aside so as to show good manners.

A good example I heard about years ago:

Prince Philip was hosting a meal, one of the guests was Lady Tebbit (late wife of Norman Tebbit, she was seriously injured in the Brighton bombing). She was struggling to eat one of the courses because she couldnt manage it with the cutlery so was eating with her fingers. Prince Philip spotted this and did the same. He changed the etiquette to be a well mannered host.

Lovely story about Philip. I never knew that but it doesn't surprise me.

AmazingSnakeHead · 27/10/2023 10:26

Spirro · 27/10/2023 07:35

This. Pardon is really common, my DC know they’re not allowed to say it. What? - is correct.

Show quote history

Why does being common mean that they can't say it?

I think it's regional. I taught DC to say "pardon?" because I think it's more polite than "what?"

Spirro · 27/10/2023 10:29

AmazingSnakeHead · 27/10/2023 10:26

Why does being common mean that they can't say it?

I think it's regional. I taught DC to say "pardon?" because I think it's more polite than "what?"

Show quote history

Because we aren’t common, and it’s nice to have manners.

It’s not regional, and it’s not more polite. I suppose it’s not rude as such, it just marks you out as being lower class.

AmazingSnakeHead · 27/10/2023 10:31

Spirro · 27/10/2023 10:29

Because we aren’t common, and it’s nice to have manners.

It’s not regional, and it’s not more polite. I suppose it’s not rude as such, it just marks you out as being lower class.

Show quote history

We must confuse people then. We're very obviously solidly middle class, and DC have good manners, but say pardon.

ColleenDonaghy · 27/10/2023 10:31

Spirro · 27/10/2023 10:29

Because we aren’t common, and it’s nice to have manners.

It’s not regional, and it’s not more polite. I suppose it’s not rude as such, it just marks you out as being lower class.

Show quote history

And heaven forbid someone should think you are lower class. <faints>

maratara · 27/10/2023 11:48

Australian here. Mind is blown. I was always taught that "pardon" was much more polite than "what " or "sorry" if you didn't hear someone. . Literally in shock at this thread!!!

Eleganz · 27/10/2023 11:55

Spirro · 27/10/2023 10:29

Because we aren’t common, and it’s nice to have manners.

It’s not regional, and it’s not more polite. I suppose it’s not rude as such, it just marks you out as being lower class.

Show quote history

Not saying "what" and saying "pardon" instead in response to being called is a thorough middle class invention. I went to uni with several people with noble titles (quite an eye opener for a girl from the post-industrial north of england) and they all said "what" when called. I recall watching a documentary about Windsor castle a while ago and Prince Phillip said "What" all the time when having his attention called to something.

Loubelle70 · 27/10/2023 11:58

Depends on tone....if its Kevin and Perry WHATTTTTT?!!!!! Thats rude... but... If i shout my daughter, she will usually shout back, 'yep?'

Nanny0gg · 27/10/2023 12:01

anareen · 27/10/2023 04:58

Having a discussion/debate

Is it rude for DC to say "what" when you call them?
I think it is. I teach DC to respond with "yes" when called. I grew up in Hispanic culture. Possibly this is a factor?

What are others input? Do you teach DC something along the same lines?

'Yes mum? / Yes Nanny?' in my house

WinterDeWinter · 27/10/2023 12:03

Saying what rather than pardon was always considered to be one of the (many) marks of being U (upper class) vs non-U (middle or shock even lower middle). Via Nancy Mitford I think, and thence adopted by all the middles who were desperate to be upper- rather than middle- or lower-middle

It's one of those tropes you see a lot on here, a bit like people talking about driving a fifteen-year-old Volvo and wearing old clothes of excellent quality.

I say 'sorry' and avoid it all. I want to say 'exsqueeze me' most of the time though.

WinterDeWinter · 27/10/2023 12:04

I definitely say 'yes' when called - 'what' sounds irritable and thus rude.

Laurdo · 27/10/2023 12:11

AmazingSnakeHead · 27/10/2023 10:26

Why does being common mean that they can't say it?

I think it's regional. I taught DC to say "pardon?" because I think it's more polite than "what?"

Show quote history

Is you said Pardon in Scotland you'd be laughed at 🤣

OneTC · 27/10/2023 12:15

combioven · 27/10/2023 07:23

I’m English and yes ‘what’ in response to being called from another room would have been considered rude when I grew up and I still find it rude now. Although after saying ‘yes Mum?’ a few times and her not responding I would say ‘WHAT’ which always got an answer out of her 🤣

This exactly.

normally because you're being called to come rather than called to respond

Original poster

anareen · 27/10/2023 12:21

Beenalongwinter · 27/10/2023 06:55

www.tatler.com/article/sorry-what-pardon-etiquette

Food for thought.

Thank you!

OP posts:

Mamette · 27/10/2023 12:34

ColleenDonaghy · 27/10/2023 09:24

Some people so desperate to show that they know what's upper class it's affecting their reading comprehension

Show quote history

As a non-British person I felt a bit of terror when I realised I had inadvertently entered into the dreaded Mumsnet Upper Class Point Scoring Competition so I backed awaaay 😱

Who cares if that’s not what the thread is about. Not the 📢 YOU ARE COMMON 📢brigade, that’s for sure.

Mamette · 27/10/2023 12:40

Pineapplesnowbells · 27/10/2023 09:36

I think you misunderstood the pp. She was saying that 'what?' (In response to being called) is rude and that she was always told to use 'yes?' instead.

Show quote history

I am so sorry, you are right!

My speed reading skills are clearly shit 😫

ManateeFair · 27/10/2023 12:44

“What?” is the correct etiquette if you haven’t heard somebody. “Pardon?” is very working class and incorrect.

Amazing how people who think they're experts on etiquette are so often incredibly rude. Maybe focus less on the etiquette and more on the politeness.

Polecat07 · 27/10/2023 12:47

@Laurdo

I know lots of Scottish families that use 'pardon'. No one laughs?
There is as much variation in the Scottish class system and culture as there is the rest of the UK, you know?

Laurdo · 27/10/2023 12:53

Polecat07 · 27/10/2023 12:47

@Laurdo

I know lots of Scottish families that use 'pardon'. No one laughs?
There is as much variation in the Scottish class system and culture as there is the rest of the UK, you know?

Yes I know. It was a light-hearted comment. I can imagine in posher areas like Morningside and places in the Highlands "pardon" would be said but I must be really uncultured as I don't know a single person who would say "pardon". 🤣

StrangePaintName · 27/10/2023 12:56

LoobyDop · 27/10/2023 10:02

What is rude, pardon is naff. Naff is worse than rude 😀

Along the lines of a (Jilly Cooper?) child having been taught it was worse to say ‘pardon’ than ‘fuck…

The ‘what’ vs ‘pardon’ thing is a matter of U/ Non-U usage, OP. But I don’t think that’s what you’re asking — you’re not asking about someone not hearing what you’ve said and asking you to repeat.

StrangePaintName · 27/10/2023 12:57

Laurdo · 27/10/2023 12:53

Yes I know. It was a light-hearted comment. I can imagine in posher areas like Morningside and places in the Highlands "pardon" would be said but I must be really uncultured as I don't know a single person who would say "pardon". 🤣

Show quote history

Posh Scots would be as unlikely to use the non-U ‘pardon’ as English ditto.

JaneJeffer · 27/10/2023 13:02

Ha?

Butchyrestingface · 27/10/2023 13:03

Polecat07 · 27/10/2023 12:47

@Laurdo

I know lots of Scottish families that use 'pardon'. No one laughs?
There is as much variation in the Scottish class system and culture as there is the rest of the UK, you know?

My mammy dragged me up to say 'pardon'. She did aspire to poshness, tbf. So I say 'pardon' in polite company and 'WHIT NOO?!" to fam.

StrangePaintName · 27/10/2023 13:04

JaneJeffer · 27/10/2023 13:02

Ha?

We moved home from England with a young DS, and I swear he was ‘ha?’ ing as one born to it within a week.😊

stayathomer · 27/10/2023 13:12

Mamette
Sorry that was the way I phrased it, I meant we were told to say yes instead of what!