Page 13 | Cultural manners

anareen · 2023-10-27T03:58:49+00:00

Having a discussion/debate Is it rude for DC to say "what" when you call them? I think it is. I teach DC to respond with "yes" when called. I grew up in Hispanic culture. Possibly this is a factor? What are others input? Do you teach DC something along the same lines?

WinterDeWinter · 29/10/2023 12:40

Barbadossunset · 29/10/2023 12:29

Thepeople thank you for answering my question.
I thinking sneering at people for whatever background is horrible. Sneering at people for being ‘posh’ is just as bad as for being ‘common’.
If you don’t like the person then find a reason to dislike them as a person, not because of their background.

I think sneering at others sneering at others is ok and that's the worst that @Thepeopleversuswork could be accused of

Pineapplesnowbells · 29/10/2023 13:14

Thanks very much for the explanation @WinterDeWinter.

Thepeopleversuswork · 29/10/2023 14:12

Barbadossunset · 29/10/2023 12:29

Thepeople thank you for answering my question.
I thinking sneering at people for whatever background is horrible. Sneering at people for being ‘posh’ is just as bad as for being ‘common’.
If you don’t like the person then find a reason to dislike them as a person, not because of their background.

I agree completely with this... sneering at people for being "posh" is indeed obnoxious. Any kind of sneering based on an arbitrary perception of where people sit in society in unpleasant.

But the bare fact of the matter is that the more cultural capital you have, the more power and authority you are likely to have in society. And that has all sorts of benefits: you're far more likely to have (and be able to make) money, you're likely to be better connected and to find it easier to find good jobs. You're much more likely to find life easier in all sorts of ways.

So sneering "down" is likely to be proportionately more damaging to the person you're sneering at that sneering up.

That doesn't mean it's OK to discriminate against anyone because of their background. But the implications of sneering at people for having less money/cultural capital are different from sneering at them for having more.

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 29/10/2023 14:28

NewFriendlyLadybird · 29/10/2023 10:59

@WinterDeWinter totally agree with you. I think given names have always been class signifiers; food too. Where you go on holiday and what you do on holiday is a massive new signifier — and, as with many things, does not always correlate with how ‘expensive’ it is. And interior design. Almost certainly because making decisions about such things used only to be available to the upper classes. Now they are generally available, there have to be ways to differentiate in order to retain that entrenched social power.

I think names as class identifiers got more pronounced throughout the twentieth century. Authors of fiction would use stereotypes such as ‘Mabel’ for a 1920s housemaid. However, I look back at my family who were domestic servants and manual labourers in the 1920s and they all seem to have either timeless Christian names like John and Jane and Mary, or sometimes (for the men) family surnames given as names.
I think names as class identifiers is a more pronounced trend now even than it was in the eighties when Viz had Sharon and Tracy, but maybe I’ve taken my eye off the ball.

I’m hoping this thread will keep me amused until all the class-based Christmas arguments take over.

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 29/10/2023 14:57

WinterDeWinter · 29/10/2023 00:28

Well yes and no - I’d say fundamentally the class system is based on inherited power, and these signifiers are just one of the defences. They can be breached occasionally - for eg 19th century American heiresses - but only with the consent of the powerful.

I always find these discussions wildly naive in the way they position all this stuff as being from a sort of generic ‘past’. one of the biggest shocks of my life (80s scholarship girl) was realising the extent to which class still really does equate to power in what till then had seemed to me to be a meritocratic society with some limits (was very blind to my own class privilege for eg). It feels to me that this is getting worse, not better. I wonder why we all pretend it’s not?

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I don’t think many of us on this thread do see these snobberies about the choice of words as something from the bad old days - not if we’ve read the thread, anyhow. At least one person has admitted to correcting their children for saying ‘pardon’ and quite a few more for saying ‘what’.

WinterDeWinter · 29/10/2023 15:50

True.

I think at an individual rather than structural level, it cans sometimes be almost subliminal. I was taught to push food onto my fork (rounded side up, left hand) with my knife (right hand) - even peas. While I now often eat with my upturned fork in my right hand with no knife, I literally shiver with distaste if DH holds his fork upturned in his left hand and pushes food on with his knife. It’s clearly insane and awful of me - but I’m not joking about my visceral response. That shows I think how the mind can be manipulated to think of others as ‘less than’.

Thepeopleversuswork · 29/10/2023 16:05

WinterDeWinter · 29/10/2023 15:50

True.

I think at an individual rather than structural level, it cans sometimes be almost subliminal. I was taught to push food onto my fork (rounded side up, left hand) with my knife (right hand) - even peas. While I now often eat with my upturned fork in my right hand with no knife, I literally shiver with distaste if DH holds his fork upturned in his left hand and pushes food on with his knife. It’s clearly insane and awful of me - but I’m not joking about my visceral response. That shows I think how the mind can be manipulated to think of others as ‘less than’.

I agree: I've internalised a lot of this sort of stuff from my mum who was a total snob (based on her own social insecurity). Nowadays I officially reject it all as being hide-bound class insecurity and I would judge someone hard if they actively pulled someone else up on it.

But I still reflexively cringe when people say "pardon" or "serviette", even as I hate myself for it. It's hard-wired.