Page 8 | Who are the breastfeeding mafia?!?!?

PlumPudd · 2023-10-23T08:07:18+00:00

I often see threads on Mumsnet where people talk about feeling pressured to breastfeed by the breastfeeding mafia or shamed for not breastfeeding. And I’m curious… Who are these breastfeeding mafiosos?? If you felt pressured to breastfeed, can you explain where this tangible pressure actually came from? Especially when, if you do chose to formula feed, you’ll be doing what the vast majority of UK women do, so you won’t be in the minority and will be surrounded by other women doing the same. Is it just that being told “breast is best” is upsetting if that’s not what you’re choosing? Why (if the breastfeeding mafia are so powerful) are they also so unsuccessful with breastfeeding rates in the UK among the lowest in the developing world? My experience with the so called mafia (aka midwives, doctors, council funded breastfeeding support teams) is that they were either not there, too busy to help or repeatedly told me to formula feed if I so much as asked for help with a latch. I 100% believe it’s women’s choice how they feed their babies, but that that choice needs to be informed by accurate information provided by scientists and healthcare professionals, (aka breast is best but formula is fine) and that women need to be supported in whatever they chose, meaning proper lactation consultants and follow up care for mothers that want to try breastfeeding and guidance on paced bottle feeding and techniques for those who chose formula - and both for those who combi.

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:18

Also, to add. You say, If you read my previous posts you’ll see that I’m pro women having the info to make an informed choice

Do you think all the information to "make an informed choice" should actually include the benefits of FF? Because I've never seen a leaflet like that - pros and cons of both. So if you want women to have all the information, then I suggest you consider what all the information might include. I certainly would have liked some useful NHS-led information on how formula works, what to look out for/avoid, best practice for bottle sterilising etc.

Instead, I was left to figure all that out myself, post partum, suffering from PND, with an unhappy child in tow while I perused the aisle at Boots and frantically googled on my phone.

Original poster

PlumPudd · 23/10/2023 14:23

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:16

@PlumPudd but you don't seem to accept any of these women telling you how they, or their loved ones, felt the pressure? that your "no pressure" conversation actually feels very pressured in that situation. That lots and lots of women have midwives giving them a hard time or refusing to get them formula when they ask for it. These are all REAL things that happen. it's not just some amorphous "pressure" that these women are being a bit silly about and over sensitive to.

I will be forever grateful to the GP who gave me "permission" to stop BF. She was the first healthcare professional who basically said to me, "look, you've tried. It's not working. Stop trying - you're just upsetting yourself and your baby is losing too much weight. give him a bottle."

I’m discussing what pressure looks like to difference women with one poster, not discounting the experiences of loads of women. Again, see previous posts. I can’t respond to every post

OP posts:

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:25

@PlumPudd The reason a midwife would ask if she was sure is because the majority of women say they want to breastfeed but end up not breastfeeding because of a lack of support. That’s a tragedy, and is those women not being given a proper choice and all down to lack of bloody funding (another debate).

You said this. So when people point out that the midwife asking this feels like pressure, do you just not consider that relevant? Because YOU don't think it's pressure and YOU think it's a reasonable question.

Original poster

PlumPudd · 23/10/2023 14:26

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:18

Also, to add. You say, If you read my previous posts you’ll see that I’m pro women having the info to make an informed choice

Do you think all the information to "make an informed choice" should actually include the benefits of FF? Because I've never seen a leaflet like that - pros and cons of both. So if you want women to have all the information, then I suggest you consider what all the information might include. I certainly would have liked some useful NHS-led information on how formula works, what to look out for/avoid, best practice for bottle sterilising etc.

Instead, I was left to figure all that out myself, post partum, suffering from PND, with an unhappy child in tow while I perused the aisle at Boots and frantically googled on my phone.

Absolutely yes. Hospitals are supposed to give you that info and the NHS definitely does. If your hospital didn’t you should lodge a complaint, sorry you had that experience

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/baby/breastfeeding-and-bottle-feeding/bottle-feeding/formula-milk-questions/

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/baby/breastfeeding-and-bottle-feeding/bottle-feeding/making-up-baby-formula/

https://www.nhs.uk/start-for-life/baby/feeding-your-baby/bottle-feeding/bottle-feeding-your-baby/feeding-on-demand/#:~:text=Paced%20feeding,-Paced%20feeding%20is&text=You%20can%20help%20them%20to,the%20milk%20flowing%20too%20fast.

Formula milk: common questions

Information and advice on formula feeding, including how much formula to give your baby, how many wet nappies they should have and how to handle feeds away from home.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/baby/breastfeeding-and-bottle-feeding/bottle-feeding/formula-milk-questions/

OP posts:

Original poster

PlumPudd · 23/10/2023 14:31

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:25

@PlumPudd The reason a midwife would ask if she was sure is because the majority of women say they want to breastfeed but end up not breastfeeding because of a lack of support. That’s a tragedy, and is those women not being given a proper choice and all down to lack of bloody funding (another debate).

You said this. So when people point out that the midwife asking this feels like pressure, do you just not consider that relevant? Because YOU don't think it's pressure and YOU think it's a reasonable question.

I think it’s very relevant. Understanding how different people perceive things. That’s why I said to you this is pressure to me this is information and I think this is why they do it. Not - this isn’t pressure

OP posts:

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:32

Absolutely yes. Hospitals are supposed to give you that info and the NHS definitely does. If your hospital didn’t you should lodge a complaint, sorry you had that experience

But this is my point. It sounds like you're a fan of genuine information sharing and acceptance that different women will need or want to do things in different ways. But I think you're being naive if you can't see that it often does NOT actually happen that way.

I remember being heavily pregnant and at the hospital and seeing posters up telling me how my baby will be cleverer if I breastfed. I mean, WTAF?

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:35

PlumPudd · 23/10/2023 14:31

I think it’s very relevant. Understanding how different people perceive things. That’s why I said to you this is pressure to me this is information and I think this is why they do it. Not - this isn’t pressure

Show quote history

Okay, well, as YOUR perception is that it's information, not pressure, then I think we can safely say that you're not going to understand why women feel pressure. I get it - you don't feel this way. But lots of other women do. Probably because by the time the midwife is asking this question, they've already been bombarded with leaflets and posters and information. They've been told that the ward doesn't carry formula. They've had well meaning randoms assure them pre baby that breast feeding will be amazing, and this "information" conversation in which the midwife asks, AGAIN, "are you sure" is just the final straw.

UsingChangeofName · 23/10/2023 14:40

that's online and anonymous. In the real world I don't know who it is who pressures women to breastfeed. I didn't encounter a single midwife or breastfeeding support worker who didn't tell me first and foremost that it's fine if I want to stop!

A friend / colleague of mine (due in a couple of weeks, so as current as you can get) was telling me a couple of weeks ago that at the parenting classes they have attended, the midwives told them they weren't allowed to discuss FF.
No advice. No question. No information.
They were also told that if they wished to FF in hospital, the hospital will no longer provide milk, they would have to take in their own. Not sure how helpful this is to an expectant mother who goes in hoping to breastfeed then, for whatever reason, can't.

I'd say that is pressure, and really, really unhelpful.

Estermay · 23/10/2023 14:52

The NHS used to have no advice about formula feeding. The info on the website is very recent. There are no leaflets. Bottle feeding was never mentioned to me. Combi feeding advice was simply don't as it is not possible and will make your milk dry up.

Estermay · 23/10/2023 14:54

And hospital said they will not provide formula or help on how to formula feed.
I agree with another poster. I had to look in the aisles of boots not having a client while feeling very upset.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 23/10/2023 14:58

When my youngest was struggling to feed a midwife whispered to me a brand of bottle that is known to work well with tinies or those struggling. She said she’d get in massive trouble if she was found out telling me that information. Information that helped a baby who’d lost 15% of their body weight and was having to be tube fed.

Greeneyedminx · 23/10/2023 15:01

When I had my baby I told the midwife that I didn’t want to breastfeed at all, I was on a ward with 3 other mums who were all breastfeeding their babies.
When I asked the midwife about getting some formula for my baby, which were supplied ready made up at that time, she shouted across to the student midwife to fetch a bottle for the unnatural mother !!!

if that’s not being part of the breastfeeding mafia, I don’t know what it is!

StrangePaintName · 23/10/2023 15:05

UsingChangeofName · 23/10/2023 14:40

that's online and anonymous. In the real world I don't know who it is who pressures women to breastfeed. I didn't encounter a single midwife or breastfeeding support worker who didn't tell me first and foremost that it's fine if I want to stop!

A friend / colleague of mine (due in a couple of weeks, so as current as you can get) was telling me a couple of weeks ago that at the parenting classes they have attended, the midwives told them they weren't allowed to discuss FF.
No advice. No question. No information.
They were also told that if they wished to FF in hospital, the hospital will no longer provide milk, they would have to take in their own. Not sure how helpful this is to an expectant mother who goes in hoping to breastfeed then, for whatever reason, can't.

I'd say that is pressure, and really, really unhelpful.

That was certainly my experience when DS was born 11 years ago. The NCT course never mentioned FF, the hospital had no formula when literally nothing was coming out of my breasts (had to stay in longer because of CS), and when I attended an NCT BF drop-in in despair a week later (Easter weekend intervened), the woman running it said ‘I don’t know what to tell you’ and looked mildly horrified I had a bottle of formula with me — but what else was I going to do?

Im not a timid, easily-guilt-tripped, or under-confident person, but it was a deeply miserable experience.

MariaVT65 · 23/10/2023 15:05

Oh just to add that my midwife friend recently told me that her trust is starting a new initiative at postnatal appointments to question mothers about why they aren’t breastfeeding. I told her if anyone did that to me, they’d be getting a formal complaint.

Original poster

PlumPudd · 23/10/2023 15:29

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:35

Okay, well, as YOUR perception is that it's information, not pressure, then I think we can safely say that you're not going to understand why women feel pressure. I get it - you don't feel this way. But lots of other women do. Probably because by the time the midwife is asking this question, they've already been bombarded with leaflets and posters and information. They've been told that the ward doesn't carry formula. They've had well meaning randoms assure them pre baby that breast feeding will be amazing, and this "information" conversation in which the midwife asks, AGAIN, "are you sure" is just the final straw.

Show quote history

I don’t think it’s a case of - I don’t feel this as pressure most other women would. Clearly it’s a spectrum, and midwives and other health professionals need to decide where to draw the line between information support and pressure.

For another women, who quite wanted to try breastfeeding but felt under presumably to FF because that was what the women around her did and her MIL was saying it was what she did, that offer of, are you sure, we can give you some support, might be what she needs to hear to chose to try at to breastfeed.

Everyone’s experience is different

OP posts:

SouthLondonMum22 · 23/10/2023 15:38

PlumPudd · 23/10/2023 13:23

I guess what you’re describing as pressure I would describe as being given accurate information.

For me pressure would be more like, if you’d decided to formula feed and made that clear, doctors and midwives then telling you repeatedly it was the wrong choice. Or women in cafes telling you you were harming your baby.

So…

Not pressure

Midwife: “hi mum, what a lovely baby. have you decided how you want to feed? Here are some leaflets, we do recommend breastfeeding.”
Woman: “yes I think I want to formula feed”
Midwife: “okay are you sure? We can help you try breastfeeding if you want to give it a go?”
Woman: “no thanks it’s not for me.”
Midwife: “okay then no problem, here are the bottles. Shall I spend some time with you showing you how to do paces feeding?”

Pressure

Midwife: “hi mum, what a lovely baby. have you decided how you want to feed? Here are some leaflets. We do recommend breastfeeding.”
Woman: “yes I think I want to formula feed”
Midwife: “okay are you sure? We can help you try breastfeeding if you want to give it a go?”
Woman: “no thanks it’s not for me.”
Midwife: “hrmm, you know you’re putting your baby at risk of xxxx and not giving him the best start in life. Go on just give it a go.”
Woman: “ no I don’t want to”
Midwife: “well that’s a shame, tsk, I’ll have someone come and talk to you about it again later”

Show quote history

I experienced the latter but it started during pregnancy. I was asked over and over again when I had made it clear I was formula feeding, it was relentless and again, I had to be really firm when baby is born too. I outright told them not to ask me again.

It certainly didn't want to make me breastfeed either.

TeeedleDum · 23/10/2023 15:53

UsingChangeofName · 23/10/2023 14:40

that's online and anonymous. In the real world I don't know who it is who pressures women to breastfeed. I didn't encounter a single midwife or breastfeeding support worker who didn't tell me first and foremost that it's fine if I want to stop!

A friend / colleague of mine (due in a couple of weeks, so as current as you can get) was telling me a couple of weeks ago that at the parenting classes they have attended, the midwives told them they weren't allowed to discuss FF.
No advice. No question. No information.
They were also told that if they wished to FF in hospital, the hospital will no longer provide milk, they would have to take in their own. Not sure how helpful this is to an expectant mother who goes in hoping to breastfeed then, for whatever reason, can't.

I'd say that is pressure, and really, really unhelpful.

Just to reply to NHS not giving out formula. I tried to breast feed but had low milk supply and baby was in neonatal for 3 weeks. We were always supplied by hospital with sma formula in transition care and neonatal for top ups. So from my experience they give you formula if breast feeding fails.

As to not providing formula if someone doesn't want to breast feed, I'm not really sure why they should. Like I didn't expect them to provide anything for the baby (e.g nappies, wipes, etc) and took all that in myself including formula in case BF didn't work.

TeeedleDum · 23/10/2023 16:00

MariaVT65 · 23/10/2023 15:05

Oh just to add that my midwife friend recently told me that her trust is starting a new initiative at postnatal appointments to question mothers about why they aren’t breastfeeding. I told her if anyone did that to me, they’d be getting a formal complaint.

I'm not sure a medical professional asking why you're not planning to follow the standard medical advice for your baby would warrant a formal complaint.

YokoOnosBigHat · 23/10/2023 16:02

If anything I was the weirdo when I breastfed (9 and 6 years ago) as so few others around me seemed to. I assumed it was because I wasn't in an affluent area, but even accounting for that I was advised to formula feed by professionals on several occasions too (during a course of antibiotics, for example).

AngryBirdsNoMore · 23/10/2023 16:18

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:32

Absolutely yes. Hospitals are supposed to give you that info and the NHS definitely does. If your hospital didn’t you should lodge a complaint, sorry you had that experience

But this is my point. It sounds like you're a fan of genuine information sharing and acceptance that different women will need or want to do things in different ways. But I think you're being naive if you can't see that it often does NOT actually happen that way.

I remember being heavily pregnant and at the hospital and seeing posters up telling me how my baby will be cleverer if I breastfed. I mean, WTAF?

My least favourite poster was the one telling me breastfeeding is ‘sexy’. Vom.

AngryBirdsNoMore · 23/10/2023 16:31

Megifer · 23/10/2023 14:10

"And women like me get emotional about all of this because those who push breastfeeding still discount our experience and claim there is no pressure."

This is the crux of it for me. People need to pack it in with the wide eyed "but there is no pressure" and start listening to those who say there 100% is. Every little "but are you sure" "have you tried.. " "can't you just..." "it is best" is pressure to someone who has said they don't want to.

I think its fine if someone says "I want to BF but am not sure if....." then offer advice etc. But a point blank "I don't want to BF" - that should be it. Same as anything else to do with our bodies

👏👏👏

Well said.

AngryBirdsNoMore · 23/10/2023 16:35

NotLactoseFree · 23/10/2023 14:16

@PlumPudd but you don't seem to accept any of these women telling you how they, or their loved ones, felt the pressure? that your "no pressure" conversation actually feels very pressured in that situation. That lots and lots of women have midwives giving them a hard time or refusing to get them formula when they ask for it. These are all REAL things that happen. it's not just some amorphous "pressure" that these women are being a bit silly about and over sensitive to.

I will be forever grateful to the GP who gave me "permission" to stop BF. She was the first healthcare professional who basically said to me, "look, you've tried. It's not working. Stop trying - you're just upsetting yourself and your baby is losing too much weight. give him a bottle."

All of this.

I was blue lighted to hospital when DS2 was 3 days old because he was vomiting blood. Turns out it was my blood; he was getting so much blood from my nipples that it was irritating his stomach and causing him vomit, so he was also losing weight.

The hospital paediatrician told me I could just stop breastfeeding, it was ok to do so. I could carry on, or I could stop. It felt so liberating when he said that.

He also said “don’t tell anyone on the [postnatal] floor that I said that - they’ll kill me.” Telling.

You asked about the pressure OP. We’re telling you. You’re ignoring everything that’s being said that doesn’t concur with your view.

sollenwir · 23/10/2023 16:35

@PlumPudd the choices mothers make/are sometimes forced to make regarding how to feed their child are personal and sometimes complex.
It seems however that any mention of the benefits of breastfeeding, or how you found it rewarding (even if initially hard going), are met by some people as 'breastfeeding mafia' or 'breastfeeding warriors'. Of course there are some folk who try to make FF mothers feel somehow bad, when on the whole they shouldn't, but there are also a lot of BF mothers who are just happy it worked for them and also happy to share their experiences.

The thread the other day, where is was apparently not OK to slate FF in any way, but was fine to slate BF in lots of ways, illustrated this.

Splishsplashsplooshsplosh · 23/10/2023 16:35

@TeeedleDum literally the opposite of my experience. Even though peadatrician told me to give formula top ups for my twins due to low supply we were still told NHS don't supply and we'd have to find out own (at about 10.30pn) and then had HV telling me to stop top ups as soon as babies gained. Unsurprisingly they both lost weight again

AngryBirdsNoMore · 23/10/2023 16:43

reesewithoutaspoon · 23/10/2023 12:56

Recommendations are to BF if you can, which is fine. But when that translates into women berating other women for choosing not to, then that's not fine.
It is the accusatory tone of comments like.

Why wouldn't you give your baby the best???
Your baby is the most precious thing in the world and you are choosing not to give them the best???
You should at least TRY!!

It's that kind of comment that isn't helpful. The newborn period is an emotional time for a lot of new mums,

Let's be honest here, unless you have good support and BF comes easy to you or have the funds for the likes of lactation consultants then BF can be difficult for a lot of women, who are then left to flounder and feel terrible guilt if they choose to discontinue because of the types of comments mentioned above.

BF is painted as this lovely bonding time for women, but I found the reality totally different, it was painful, felt like I was feeding continually (no one had told me about cluster feeding) I hated being the only one who could fulfill my babies needs, I hated feeding in public. I switched to FF at 6 weeks and for me, it was the best decision to save my sanity. I still had terrible PND for a year following the birth and terrible guilt because I had 'failed'. Every time I heard that comment "breast is best" It was like a wound to my heart.

The only response to a woman choosing to BF or FF should be OK.

Are you me?!

💐 for your experience. It was shit, wasn’t it. I cried at DH for over an hour the night I finally decided I couldn’t do to any more.