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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
MatthewsMumFromTikTok · 18/10/2023 16:40

Yanbu to post the actual definition.... it's there on google just as you copied and pasted

Yabu to add in the sanctimonious 'this means' etc etc

FloweryName · 18/10/2023 16:41

Not everyone agrees with this definition. It is very extreme.

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:42

MatthewsMumFromTikTok · 18/10/2023 16:40

Yanbu to post the actual definition.... it's there on google just as you copied and pasted

Yabu to add in the sanctimonious 'this means' etc etc

I have been reading for a week that people don't know the definition, so seeing as they can't use Google, this should help them out.

OP posts:
LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:43

FloweryName · 18/10/2023 16:41

Not everyone agrees with this definition. It is very extreme.

More or less everyone agrees with it actually.

Which part do you find "extreme". Can you give an example of one of those 12 things you find "extreme" or hard to stick to?

OP posts:
HeatherMoores · 18/10/2023 16:44

Agree with this YANBU
But a lot of people are going to have a problem with

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Have you seen the sort of things people like Chris Williamson (former Labour MP) have been posting on Twitter? It’s vile.

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:46

HeatherMoores · 18/10/2023 16:44

Agree with this YANBU
But a lot of people are going to have a problem with

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Have you seen the sort of things people like Chris Williamson (former Labour MP) have been posting on Twitter? It’s vile.

He is well and truly blocked. But if people have view aligned with Chris Williamson - then I imagine they do not have any genuine intention to understand what antisemitism is.

They are more interested in being antisemitic and denying it :)

OP posts:
Lorelaigilmore88 · 18/10/2023 16:47

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

AnnoyingPopUp · 18/10/2023 16:52

Well that’s 2 anti-Semites revealed in the first 2 replies eh OP 😢

Jews aren’t even allowed to define what constitutes prejudice against them. With all other racial groups, if they say they find something racist, they are believed and validated (as they should be). But Jews? Nah, fuck off Big Nose, you and all your money, you’re imagining prejudice where there is none.

HeatherMoores · 18/10/2023 16:58

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:46

He is well and truly blocked. But if people have view aligned with Chris Williamson - then I imagine they do not have any genuine intention to understand what antisemitism is.

They are more interested in being antisemitic and denying it :)

Hadn’t really come across him before, the sort of stuff he’s coming out with is bad enough but I was really shocked to find out he was a Labour mp. No wonder Labour have a problem with people like that in. Or formerly in.

RandomButtons · 18/10/2023 17:02

YANBU but I’ve seen antisemitic labels thrown around like crazy the last few days.

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 17:04

I have noted those showing up to call this "Rubbish". But for anyone with a genuine interest in understanding antisemitism, what is quoted is the Jerusalem Declaration, Initially signed by 210 scholars, which now around 350 signatories of top academics and leading experts from around the world, as well as 3 additional points from the updated International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. They are not both quoted in full as the later contains many points already on the former. So this is the full list.

These definitions have been adopted by all these countries at a national level:

Albania
Argentina
Australia
Belgium
Bosnia
Bulgaria
Canada
Colombia
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greecy
Guatemala
Hungary
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxumbourg
Muldova
Netherland
North Macedonia
Panama
Phillipines
Poland
Portugal
Serbia
Slovakia
Solvenia
South Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
United Kingdom
United States
Uruguay

As well as by the EU, the UN and the Council of Europe.

They are not "rubbish".

They give the legal definition of antisemitism in most countries around the world, including this one :)

OP posts:
TurquoiseThings · 18/10/2023 17:07

I think it's a useful post OP.

Trulywonderful · 18/10/2023 17:10

MatthewsMumFromTikTok · 18/10/2023 16:40

Yanbu to post the actual definition.... it's there on google just as you copied and pasted

Yabu to add in the sanctimonious 'this means' etc etc

Yanbu To the idea you thiyour post is necessary

Seriously how does it harm you or anyone else if the definition of antisemitism is shared. The poster only did this because loads of posters keep complaining they no longer know what they are able to say.

I think you need to have a hard think about why you felt the need to make your own post. On the naughty step with you until you have done that.

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 17:12

RandomButtons · 18/10/2023 17:02

YANBU but I’ve seen antisemitic labels thrown around like crazy the last few days.

I have seen lots of people saying that, hence have posted the full definition with explanations so people can hopefully identify if things are antisemitic or not.

My experience is that 99% of the time when people think "antisemitic labels are being tossed around like crazy", they just don't know what antisemitism is.

No offence, this is just the truth.

I had a pleasant woman 72 hours ago telling me she had "never seen" antisemitism and in the same post she was sharing a book with me entitled:

"Weaponising Antisemitism: How the Israel Lobby brought down Jeremy Corbyn"

The title alone is antisemitic. It does "point 1" in the list above where it implies a Jewish conspiracy to control British institutions and this sense of "hidden power", which is so pernicious. It exaggerates power of "The Jews" to control the world, and the content of the book was equally awful - stating Jewish student in the UK were part of the Israel Lobby.

Logically speaking - those who "brought down Jeremy Corbyn" were:

The opposition to him in his own party
The majority of the country who didn't vote for him
The entire press
The opposition in the Tory party
And basically everyone else who didn't like him or want him to be prime minister.

The idea that the "Jews did it" is conspiracy theory, that makes no logical sense and exaggerates the power of Jewish people beyond what a rational person should believe.

So largely - many people don't know when they are doing it. If they learn, they can criticise as much as they want without being antisemitic.

OP posts:
WhatWouldJeevesDo · 18/10/2023 17:16

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

But
“You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be.”

I’m having difficulty reconciling these two statements.

EasternStandard · 18/10/2023 17:16

HeatherMoores · 18/10/2023 16:44

Agree with this YANBU
But a lot of people are going to have a problem with

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Have you seen the sort of things people like Chris Williamson (former Labour MP) have been posting on Twitter? It’s vile.

Yes someone posted it earlier. Quite stark

Yanbu to share this op

Trulywonderful · 18/10/2023 17:16

RandomButtons · 18/10/2023 17:02

YANBU but I’ve seen antisemitic labels thrown around like crazy the last few days.

Yes me too. Some are definitely more than deserved and a few are not. That is why people should probably learn and understand the definition. Then you know if you are being it yourself or can see if others are. Also if someone calls something you post antisemitic but it doesn't match the definition you have a good case to call them out.

Worriedmum159 · 18/10/2023 17:22

I think this is quite useful, I would never have Googled antisemitism as I don’t think I’m antisemitic and by this definition, I’m not but holy moly, there is a lot of it about.

DistrictAndCircle · 18/10/2023 17:27

I’m Jewish and even I have a problem with point 12. Some of Netanyahu’s more maniacal cabinet members have called / are calling for appalling things to happen to Arabs. I don’t think criticising that is anti-Semitic.

But the rest of it is useful to put down so that people do know that you can very much be anti-Semitic without bluntly saying ‘I don’t like Jews’.

Catusrusty · 18/10/2023 17:31

Thanks for posting this @LemonyTicket .

I think rather than sanctimonious your definition is actually much needed given what I've read on here recently.

I admire your patience and civil replies enormously.

EasternStandard · 18/10/2023 17:32

Catusrusty · 18/10/2023 17:31

Thanks for posting this @LemonyTicket .

I think rather than sanctimonious your definition is actually much needed given what I've read on here recently.

I admire your patience and civil replies enormously.

Me too

Alargeoneplease89 · 18/10/2023 17:32

The same as things like Black lives matter, if you arent personally affected, what business is it to you? People are discriminated against their whole lives and know what that look and how that phrase is intended.

Do you start threads for all forms of discrimination or do you just pick and choose?

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 17:33

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 18/10/2023 17:16

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

But
“You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be.”

I’m having difficulty reconciling these two statements.

It is possible to argue for a variety of constitutional arrangements for Jews and Palestinians. The current way isn't the only possible way.

It is not antisemitic to support arrangements that accord full equality to all inhabitants, whether in two states, a binational state, unitary democratic state, federal state, or in whatever form.

That is not antisemitic. It's just putting forward your ideological ideas for how you think both these groups could live in accordance with equality in the same place.

If you, however, argue simply for Jews and Jews alone to not be able to self-determine, live in the area of their ancestry, flourish and inhabit the land that is currently Israel - then you are singling them out to be deprived of the rights you are defending for others.

Some people, for example, believe Jews should just be sent to Europe (I have heard that twice this week on these boards) as well as many people (such as Hamas!) who believe all of the region should all be under rule of Arab Palestinians in a way which would not protect full equality to all inhabitants.

So the short version is: you can be anti zionist if you have a different ideology that takes into account that both Jews and Arabs Palestinians have a right to make home in their homeland - but not to exclude one or the other - or indeed to characterise people who sees things differently to you in hyperbolic and offensive ways.

For similar reasons, it is Islamophobic, by definition, to deny Muslims the right to self determine by claiming an independent palestine is a terrorist endeavor. That is Islamophobic. It would not be Islamophobic to suggest a binational state or a solution which cares for the needs and rights of both sets of people (eg: a one state solution)

OP posts:
LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 17:34

DistrictAndCircle · 18/10/2023 17:27

I’m Jewish and even I have a problem with point 12. Some of Netanyahu’s more maniacal cabinet members have called / are calling for appalling things to happen to Arabs. I don’t think criticising that is anti-Semitic.

But the rest of it is useful to put down so that people do know that you can very much be anti-Semitic without bluntly saying ‘I don’t like Jews’.

Why would you need to compare it to Nazis? You just made a very strong condemnation without doing that?

OP posts:
LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 17:38

Alargeoneplease89 · 18/10/2023 17:32

The same as things like Black lives matter, if you arent personally affected, what business is it to you? People are discriminated against their whole lives and know what that look and how that phrase is intended.

Do you start threads for all forms of discrimination or do you just pick and choose?

Many people have posted asking this question. I have answered it. if you're not interested in the answer, you have lost nothing :)

I am Jewish, discussing a particular problem that's plagued Mumsnet (and the country) this week - do I need to start threads on "all forms of discrimination"?

I certainly wouldn't object to anyone else doing so.

Would you like to?

I'd imagine, if I did start a thread with the definition of Afrophobia or Islamophobia that people largely wouldn't be replying to it in fury or calling it "extreme" or "rubbish" - but that in itself speaks volumes!

OP posts: