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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
anexcellentquestion · 18/10/2023 20:15

I do love a good thread by @LemonyTicket! I'm a frequent MN name changer but I've watched and commented on one of your other threads.

The only way I've survived reading MN this week has been by playing mental bingo, with points scored for every time I read a two sentence response which included the words 'Genocide, open-air prison, apartheid state, Zionist state' etc etc. I'm in no way minimising the suffering of people caught in the crossfire but at the same time I'm weary of short responses containing buzz words.

The people commenting have zero life experience or understanding of the extreme complexity of what's going on. They have picked a side and everything they've since read online has confirmed their position to be true. Confirmation bias at its finest.

I bet I could count on one hand those on these threads who've even been to either Israel or Gaza (I've been to both) or who even know a Jew or Arab in real life and yet suddenly they're world experts and know exactly what the solution is. It's exhausting to read and if I'm honest I've hidden most of the threads.

All I can think about is the horrific death of George Floyd. It rightly sparked a global movement and a conversation too about what racism looked like for many Black Americans and Europeans. Apart from the odd fringes, never once did I see anyone say 'well, your definition of racism is extreme' or 'not everyone agrees with this'. No one would have dared to. And even if they did, it would have been universally condemned.

And yet here we are, within minutes of you starting this thread, up pop two people claiming your definition is 'extreme'.

I'm sad that you even needed to create this thread and I'm sadder still that it's necessary to have to defend it. But I'm glad you're here (whoever you are!) to provide rational, balanced discussion.

Martin83 · 18/10/2023 20:18

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth.
I would disagree with this point. I collect Jewish anecdotes. I don't know a Jew who didn't like a good Jewish joke)

EdithStourton · 18/10/2023 20:21

TrishM80 · 18/10/2023 19:28

The problem is anyone who criticises Israel, no matter how reasonable, is automatically labelled antisemitic. And the Israeli govt and supporters are very quick to use the term often without any justification.

With all respect, that is nonsense. As I said upthread, I have been able to criticise certain actions of the Israeli government amongst Jewish friends, and I have never been accused of antisemitism. Not once. And these are not Jewish people who are anti-Zionist, either, but Orthodox with friends and family in Israel.

So yeah, the wails of 'You can't have a go at Israel without being called an antisemite' don't cut a lot of ice with me.

EdithStourton · 18/10/2023 20:27

MyDarlingWhatIfYouFly · 18/10/2023 20:14

I think the original post is incredibly informative and I wouldn't have thought to research it myself.

I know this is probably an unanswerable question, but why is anti-semitism so hidden in plain sight? There are many people in this country who are openly racist, but anti-semitism seems to come from those who are vocally "anti-racist" when it comes to other minorities. From what I see most of them have no connection to Israel or Palestine personally but take this conflict to heart when others in other parts of the world are largely ignored.

Until I was university age I don't think I had ever known a Jewish person, I knew nothing about the religion and not much about their history and I'd imagine many others have the same experience - so why is this small country in the Middle East such a huge focus in the uk??

A lot of it goes back to Nazi and Soviet propaganda. Nazi propaganda was widely disseminated around the Middle East, and the then Mufti of Jerusalem was quite pally with Hitler.

Soviet propaganda took off somewhat later.

If you want the full story, Jake Wallis Simon's book 'Israelophobia' is a comprehensive if depressing read (though some of his criticisms of the British empire are inaccurate - he got the numbers very wrong about Amritsar).

cakeorwine · 18/10/2023 20:28

Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

And at the moment, Israel is being called out for some of its actions as they are not behaving the same as other democratic nations - and some posters bring up human rights in countries such as Afghanistan, Iran and Russia.

ToastWithJamAndButter · 18/10/2023 20:31

EdithStourton · 18/10/2023 20:21

With all respect, that is nonsense. As I said upthread, I have been able to criticise certain actions of the Israeli government amongst Jewish friends, and I have never been accused of antisemitism. Not once. And these are not Jewish people who are anti-Zionist, either, but Orthodox with friends and family in Israel.

So yeah, the wails of 'You can't have a go at Israel without being called an antisemite' don't cut a lot of ice with me.

I don’t see it in real life either with Jewish friends or Israeli colleagues. Though they are often the first to criticise the Israeli government.

It’s more prevalent online I think.

MyDarlingWhatIfYouFly · 18/10/2023 20:33

Thanks @EdithStourton, I'd be interested to learn more about it.

cakeorwine · 18/10/2023 20:34

Catusrusty · 18/10/2023 19:09

Quite right @Finlesswonder

Given all the posts about Israel being so terrible, why don't we see dozens of posts about the Chinese annexation of Tibet or their ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs? Their terraforming in the south China Sea, their constant looming threat over Taiwan?

Post after post about Myanmar or Iran? Post after post about the Taliban regime in Afghanistan? There are so many terrible things happening, why is so much scorn poured on Israel?

I have to agree with @EdithStourton it's because some people can't wait to put the boot into Jewish people.

Israel is a democratic country and is a strong ally of the USA. It is supposed to uphold standards expected of such countries. The UK is also a strong ally of Israel. All part of the same club of democratic nations.

Unlike Russia, China, Iran. All countries who have appalling human right records and surely countries that Israel would not want to be compared to.

cakeorwine · 18/10/2023 20:44

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:06

Who else do you compare to Nazis?

Can you give me a list of other countries you think are like Nazis?

My guess is that the only people you do it to are Jews, for exactly the reason I said. It's not innocent. It's deliberate.

It could be what actions and language you are looking at when "comparing to the Nazis"

People know how the whole process of demonising other groups, the propaganda, the language, all the way that the Nazis rose to power and especially Hitler - all strategies that then led to the ghettoes, the way Jewish people (and other people) were marked as different, losing their jobs, status, the othering and how this then led to the Holocaust.

I am NOT saying that about Israel and the Israeli Government, I am though very aware of how language and actions during the Nazi period led to the Holocaust. The way language and strategies can lead to groups being demonised and seen as less than human.

Comparing actions to the Nazis does not automatically mean someone is thinking of the Holocaust.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 20:49

Catusrusty · 18/10/2023 19:09

Quite right @Finlesswonder

Given all the posts about Israel being so terrible, why don't we see dozens of posts about the Chinese annexation of Tibet or their ethnic cleansing of the Uyghurs? Their terraforming in the south China Sea, their constant looming threat over Taiwan?

Post after post about Myanmar or Iran? Post after post about the Taliban regime in Afghanistan? There are so many terrible things happening, why is so much scorn poured on Israel?

I have to agree with @EdithStourton it's because some people can't wait to put the boot into Jewish people.

I wonder about this.

Is it partly because of the relationship politically between UK/US and Israel? Does it just get more media coverage as a result, and therefore people talk about it more.

And because of the links, and the exposure, it's less "somewhere else"?

So the places you mention, China, Tibet, Taiwan, and places I've mentioned like Yemen are in the realm of far away places that get reported on initially but then fade away in the news and other media because Western politicians aren't so invested in them, so as a result we don't keep talking.

I don't know.

Dramard · 18/10/2023 20:54

In other words any condemnation or criticism aimed at Israel will be misconstrued as criticism of Jews so basically it’s not allowed as you will be called an anti semite. Why shouldn’t Jews be asked their opinion on what Israel has done to Palestine? Any other religion/race gets asked similar questions about events that don’t actively involve them.

Towerofsong · 18/10/2023 21:07

DistrictAndCircle · 18/10/2023 17:59

Because sometimes there are direct equivalences that need calling out. Like when Smotrich (Finance Minister) calls himself a ‘fascist homophobe’ and when Itamar Ben-Gvir (Security Mobister) comes from a racist party called ‘Jewish Power’ which advocates expulsion of all Palestinians from Israel.

Now, of course I get that there are occasions when the Holocaust and the Nazis are brought into discussions when it’s not in any way equivalent. But by calling any equivalence anti-Semitic, even when it’s potentially justified, we give succour to the anti-Semites who can legitimately say that Jews want to be seen as a special kind of victim. This in itself leads to minimisation of the Holocaust.

We need to be very precise in our definitions. Of course we shouldn’t be throwing out Holocaust comparisons left, right and centre. We shouldn’t be calling people Nazis when they are merely unpleasant or common or garden racists. The Israeli government is not like the Nazis. Israel is not a fascist or an apartheid state nor is it engaging in a Holocaust of its own.

However, when Israeli cabinet ministers behave in ultra-nationalistic ways which call for racial purity in Israel, I’m afraid that is like the Nazis and should be called out as such. Being victims of the Holocaust does not give Jews a free pass to behave in an equally abhorrent way when it genuinely is that.

I agree with everything you say here EXCEPT....I would prefer Ben-Gvir and Smitrich to be called abhorrent fascists rather than being referred to as being 'like Nazis'.

MadderthanMorris · 18/10/2023 21:10

I had a pleasant woman 72 hours ago telling me she had "never seen" antisemitism and in the same post she was sharing a book with me entitled:

"Weaponising Antisemitism: How the Israel Lobby brought down Jeremy Corbyn"

You're simply lying now. I never said that I had never seen antisemitism.

MadderthanMorris · 18/10/2023 21:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RMNofTikTok · 18/10/2023 21:11

Judaism is a beautiful religion.

I do not support Zionism.

There is no war. What's happening in Palestine right now is genocide.

^

Are my views deemed to be antisemitic? As I don't wish to be.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 21:13

To expand a bit on what I said about faraway places.

When the US and UK (and others) were in Iraq and Afghanistan, those places and what was happening in them were reported on more frequently and talked about more frequently.

Now we're not there and despite what is happening there they're of unfortunately lesser interest.

Scatterbrainbox · 18/10/2023 21:17

OP I have found your posts on several threads this week very informative, thanks for taking the time, posting links etc.

I find point 10 problematic because it encroaches on the rights and freedoms of others who want self determination for themselves also (thinking specifically of the Palestinian population in Gaza and I do believe that undermines it's legitimacy.

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 18/10/2023 21:18

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 18:49

It is hard because such a state isn't feasibly possible. But any reasonable discussion has to begin with those principles.

You can either believe human beings have a right to self determination, nationalism and so on, or you can be only some do, and other's (Jews) don't.

The latter is prejudice, isn't it?

You agree that in practice it’s impossible to argue for a ‘one-state solution that accord[s] full equality to all inhabitants’ without being antisemitic according to article 10.
In that case I do think your explanations of the definition are unhelpful and unreasonable.

Trulywonderful · 18/10/2023 21:23

Martin83 · 18/10/2023 20:18

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth.
I would disagree with this point. I collect Jewish anecdotes. I don't know a Jew who didn't like a good Jewish joke)

Yes I am sometimes unsure in real world situations about this one too.

My Jewish father definitely never held back from a Jew Joke. However he was Jewish so that is why it was OK, if not a bit embarrassing on occasions. I think different ethnic groups are in fine to Joke draw cartoons etc about their own group. It is not OK for others to do this. Even as a Jew it isn't really OK to Joke about the holocaust or pogroms. You know stuff that is a bit sick. That would make the Jew guilty of antisemitism too. Self hating Jews are capable of it.

My father was rather unfortunate that he actually looked very like a popular Jewish cartoon image that antisemitics tend to use and alter to make a point. So this is rather disturbing for me when I see that image. Weird but true.

etmoietmoietmoi · 18/10/2023 21:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

No, pointing out someone Jewish is lying is not antisemitic. Childishly mocking them and specifically highlighting they're Jewish in doing so, is.

etmoietmoietmoi · 18/10/2023 21:29

Dramard · 18/10/2023 20:54

In other words any condemnation or criticism aimed at Israel will be misconstrued as criticism of Jews so basically it’s not allowed as you will be called an anti semite. Why shouldn’t Jews be asked their opinion on what Israel has done to Palestine? Any other religion/race gets asked similar questions about events that don’t actively involve them.

Why shouldn’t Jews be asked their opinion on what Israel has done to Palestine? Any other religion/race gets asked similar questions about events that don’t actively involve them.

Why should I have an opinion on a country I have never been to, never intend to go to, and have no family living there? I've never asked my colleague of Chinese heritage to account for China's suppression of Tibetans or Uyghur Muslims. It's literally never once crossed my mind to do this, but I imagine she'd give me a fucking (well deserved) slap if I did.

Scottishdreams1991 · 18/10/2023 21:30

Thanks op

Trulywonderful · 18/10/2023 21:32

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 18/10/2023 21:18

You agree that in practice it’s impossible to argue for a ‘one-state solution that accord[s] full equality to all inhabitants’ without being antisemitic according to article 10.
In that case I do think your explanations of the definition are unhelpful and unreasonable.

Personally I think that anyone that talks about a one state solution is ever calling for the genocide of Jews or Palestinians. Else they are very uneducated about the whole situation. Because it would have been several generations before that would ever be possible and that was before the last conflict.

When one state solution is called for by pro Palestine supporters I tend to assume they want the genocide of Jews or they are ignorant of the facts.

When pro Israel supports say it the same about the Palestinians applies.

That means 50% of the time it is used by people calling for genocide. So depending on the side they are either antisemitic or islamophobic really.

LifeofBrienne · 18/10/2023 21:33

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 20:49

I wonder about this.

Is it partly because of the relationship politically between UK/US and Israel? Does it just get more media coverage as a result, and therefore people talk about it more.

And because of the links, and the exposure, it's less "somewhere else"?

So the places you mention, China, Tibet, Taiwan, and places I've mentioned like Yemen are in the realm of far away places that get reported on initially but then fade away in the news and other media because Western politicians aren't so invested in them, so as a result we don't keep talking.

I don't know.

I was thinking about this and I think it’s a combination of media exposure, personal links (for me, at least, I know several people from Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, some with personal connections to Palestine, another friend from Israel) so it seems less distant, and also the power of a story. When I was a student in the 90s there were a few international causes that everyone was aware of - Palestine, Aung San Suu Kyi in Burma, Tibet, Apartheid South Africa (recently ended). They were all dramatic stories, not in the sense that there wasn’t real suffering and struggle but having a hero or something that attracted more support than mundane state violence and oppression in distant lands. And now it’s mainly Palestine. One thing that puzzles me is that everyone has largely forgotten about the women of Afghanistan. But that is rather derailing the thread.

nc14 · 18/10/2023 21:41

@DistrictAndCircle I agree with this but many NGOs believe Israel/ Palestine is an apartheid state. It’s not a radical view.

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