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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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MadderthanMorris · 23/10/2023 22:06

The idea that any "people" or ethnic group that wants one has a right to its own country is hugely oversimplistic, often unworkable and not supported by the reality of international politics. Different groups of people overlap, come and go, have histories based on various patterns of migration, conquest etc, leading to multiple competing claims. Where is the country for the Basques? The Flemish? The Faroe Islanders in Denmark or the Occitans in France? In reality, all of these claims and hundreds more have to be weighed up against the claims of the states that already exist and the other people living in the same geographical area. Most of them end up failing.

There's no better example of this than the tragic modern history of Palestine. The idea that "the jews must have a country, because everyone else does so denying them one is antisemitic" is nonsense (and was never even supported by all jews, many of whom opposed Zionism).

Finlesswonder · 23/10/2023 22:20

@MadderthanMorris
The idea that any "people" or ethnic group that wants one has a right to its own country is hugely oversimplistic, often unworkable and not supported by the reality of international politics
So the Palestinians should just be absorbed into Egypt or Israel then?

LimePi · 23/10/2023 22:25

Palestinians actually had their own country too. Based on UN mandate so in accordance with international law principles

LemonyTicket · 23/10/2023 22:39

It really boils down to two principles morally.

  1. Jews are indigenous to the area and can't, reasonably, live anywhere in it with any sort of safe or reasonable life and never could.

  2. You can't very well wander around bewailing Palestinian rights to their own nation whilst denying it to the others.

I think if Jews had been allowed to live in equality, safety, within their own values then they wouldn't have needed their own state.

That unfortunately isn't, and never has been an option in that part of the world. Most minorities have simply been cleansed or live subordinated.

OP posts:
MadderthanMorris · 23/10/2023 22:50

Finlesswonder · 23/10/2023 22:20

@MadderthanMorris
The idea that any "people" or ethnic group that wants one has a right to its own country is hugely oversimplistic, often unworkable and not supported by the reality of international politics
So the Palestinians should just be absorbed into Egypt or Israel then?

Maybe, I don't know. Being "absorbed" into Israel would probably be better than living under eternal occupation in a semi-country on its periphery.

But I didn't say no group who make a claim of wanting their own country should get one. I just said that such claims by their nature conflict with other claims, so have to be judged on their merits on a case by case basis and no group can be considered automatically entitled to one.

I think it probably makes sense for the Palestinians to have their own country along the lines of the 1948 plan. They've inhabited most of that area before and since then albeit under different forms (British, Israeli, Jordanian, Egyptian) of occupation. The areas concerned are not part of the long term history of those other countries in a way that would significantly deprive them. But sure, it's just a claim to consider against others, not an axiomatic truth.

Trulywonderful · 24/10/2023 02:42

In Parliament yesterday :

"Jeremy Corbyn (Ind, Islington North) had a go. Mr Sunak dealt with him crisply by recalling that Mr Corbyn had once hailed Hamas as 'friends'. No one enjoyed that putdown more than Sir Keir's neighbour David Lammy, who laughed and nodded."

I am no Tory but I love that Sunak said this. It is what I remember every time I see Jez.

EasternStandard · 24/10/2023 04:58

MadderthanMorris · 23/10/2023 22:06

The idea that any "people" or ethnic group that wants one has a right to its own country is hugely oversimplistic, often unworkable and not supported by the reality of international politics. Different groups of people overlap, come and go, have histories based on various patterns of migration, conquest etc, leading to multiple competing claims. Where is the country for the Basques? The Flemish? The Faroe Islanders in Denmark or the Occitans in France? In reality, all of these claims and hundreds more have to be weighed up against the claims of the states that already exist and the other people living in the same geographical area. Most of them end up failing.

There's no better example of this than the tragic modern history of Palestine. The idea that "the jews must have a country, because everyone else does so denying them one is antisemitic" is nonsense (and was never even supported by all jews, many of whom opposed Zionism).

What are you proposing happen to Israel?

MadderthanMorris · 24/10/2023 10:24

I'm not proposing anything.

I don't have a problem with Israel continuing to exist, although there are obviously questions about borders.

Peterpiperspickledpepper · 24/10/2023 10:30

Why are so many people happy to think that the holocaust never existed. As far as I know 6 million Flemish or Basque people didn’t get murdered solely because of their ethnic or religious status. It’s like the elephant in the room that no one wants to accept. Jewish people needed a state of their own because huge swaths of Europe and the ME couldn’t be trusted to stop killing then.

MadderthanMorris · 24/10/2023 10:48

But the movement to establish a jewish homeland in Israel, and the large scale population drive to make it a reality, started in the nineteenth century long before the Holocaust was a twinkle in Hitler's eye, and was formalised as an intention by the British in 1917.

EdithStourton · 24/10/2023 17:25

MadderthanMorris · 24/10/2023 10:48

But the movement to establish a jewish homeland in Israel, and the large scale population drive to make it a reality, started in the nineteenth century long before the Holocaust was a twinkle in Hitler's eye, and was formalised as an intention by the British in 1917.

After centuries of pogroms and prejudice...

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 24/10/2023 19:05

Peterpiperspickledpepper · 24/10/2023 10:30

Why are so many people happy to think that the holocaust never existed. As far as I know 6 million Flemish or Basque people didn’t get murdered solely because of their ethnic or religious status. It’s like the elephant in the room that no one wants to accept. Jewish people needed a state of their own because huge swaths of Europe and the ME couldn’t be trusted to stop killing then.

I'm not sure where these many people are.
I've never seen anyone on MN deny the holocaust.
I have seen people minimise it by forgetting that about 18 million people were murdered.

etmoietmoietmoi · 24/10/2023 20:09

Peterpiperspickledpepper · 24/10/2023 10:30

Why are so many people happy to think that the holocaust never existed. As far as I know 6 million Flemish or Basque people didn’t get murdered solely because of their ethnic or religious status. It’s like the elephant in the room that no one wants to accept. Jewish people needed a state of their own because huge swaths of Europe and the ME couldn’t be trusted to stop killing then.

Why are so many people happy to think that the holocaust never existed.

Because oppressed/murdered Jews don't fit their anti-globalist/capitalist/Zionist narrative. So they either question the 6 million number or outright deny it.

A PP said they haven't seen any holocaust denial on MN. I have.

etmoietmoietmoi · 24/10/2023 20:12

Or the other oft-quoted version is that the Jews were in collusion with the Nazis so they could achieve a Zionist state.

MadderthanMorris · 24/10/2023 22:21

But @Peterpiperspickledpepper brought holocaust denial up as the supposed reason why I didn't understand that jews have a different level of need and entitlement to a state of their own than other ethnic groups. Which makes no sense at all because (a) I've never denied the holocaust, and there's no reason to believe I ever would, and (b) as I pointed out, the drive toward a jewish homeland in Palestine, the formulation of it into a plan by the British and the large scale immigration to that end started long before the holocaust, so can't be explained as a response to it.

I'm not sure if this thread has made anyone any clearer about antisemitism, but hyperbole and nonsensical accusations aren't really helpful.

Trulywonderful · 23/11/2023 09:33

.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism
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