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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To share the actual definition of antisemitism

541 replies

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 16:38

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:15

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 19:01

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

I think it's very helpful posting this, and it isn't extreme. Like you say it's been adopted by many countries etc.

Point 11 is the point I've seen used the most on recent threads to accuse people of antisemitism when there hasn't been any.

A thread about Israel and its perceived failings is obviously not going to include much about other countries and their perceived failings, yet many people are accused of being antisemetic on that basis.

On one of the deleted threads I responded to a poster by saying this, and also giving examples of other countries such as Russia, China, Myanmar and Yemen where innocent people were being affected by decisions and actions either of the State or by other countries. Places that I also criticised. I also would hold Israel to the same standards as the UK, France, Italy, or "any other democratic nation".

I received a very angry and aggressive response accusing me of only caring when Muslims were affected! It was such a hate-filled response, and patently anti-Islam that I was about to report it, but the thread disappeared before I had the chance.

That poster is a regular poster on threads about Israel and is frequently accusing people of antisemitism when, according to the list posted, there hasn't been any. But I was shocked at the visceral hate they showed for Muslims.

I am not sure what was said, but these guidelines are a list of no nos, that are very clear cut. The rest is usually a debate and some judgement does come into it.

Debate can be spirited, and being spirited is generally not antisemitic. People do have bias. Which again isn't in an of itself antisemitic.

However: There's also a very clear sense for Jews that some people have fixation with the crimes of Israel. They are almost incandescent with it. Hate actually reeks off them like they almost can't catch a breath. They don't go a day without obsessing over Israel / Palestine.

That feels different to "criticism of Israel" and it feels like it's crossing into the trop of Jews being demonic or uniquely evil.

Don't you think?

As i said, not clear cut and judgment plays a role but if someone was exhibiting those behaviors I would feel very uncomfortable and would consider them an antisemite.

I am not saying that's what you did, just explaining why it might be that some of us are sensitive. It feels like being repeatedly kicked.

OP posts:
Gruntsandgroans · 18/10/2023 19:18

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:06

Who else do you compare to Nazis?

Can you give me a list of other countries you think are like Nazis?

My guess is that the only people you do it to are Jews, for exactly the reason I said. It's not innocent. It's deliberate.

Is it better to say that the Israelis are looking for another Nakba then? People like to make comparisons and when people think of genocide I think they automatically think of the Nazis. Perhaps just saying that Israel are looking for another Nakba would be fairer and more accurate, especially when a member of the Israeli parliament actually called for a Nakba more that will overshadow the one in 1948? Maybe if people spoke about Nakba more then the Nazis wouldn't be their first thought?

WeWereInParis · 18/10/2023 19:18

Who else do you compare to Nazis?

Can you give me a list of other countries you think are like Nazis?

My guess is that the only people you do it to are Jews, for exactly the reason I said. It's not innocent. It's deliberate.

But people do compare other governments to Nazis. Gary Lineker said that the UK government's language and policy was similar to that of 1930s Germany (and plenty of people agreed with him). If, hypothetically, the Israeli government enacted similar policy with similar rhetoric and Lineker made similar criticisms, would that be anti-Semitic? Even if you think he would be wrong and the comparison inappropriate, would it be anti-Semitic? When he's criticised the UK government for the same?

To be clear, I'm not saying that all comparisons are justified. But I don't think you can say that any comparison will always be anti-Semitic, regardless of any policy, language, or actions from Israel in the future.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 19:21

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:06

Who else do you compare to Nazis?

Can you give me a list of other countries you think are like Nazis?

My guess is that the only people you do it to are Jews, for exactly the reason I said. It's not innocent. It's deliberate.

Not sure I agree. I never call anyone Nazis, but other people do use the word to describe a variety of things/people/groups/etc. So I don't think it's correct that it is only used as a slur against Israel. Yes, it is used, but not exclusively.

Not that I think it should be allowed to describe anyone other than the actual Nazis and those who prescribe to neo Nazi ideals in such a way.

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:23

ToastWithJamAndButter · 18/10/2023 19:12

Shake away. Thank you for your response. It’s as I predicted.

Let me help break this down for you seeing as you are literally so antisemitic you actually can't acknowledge the concept of antisemitism as a thing.

If you went to up to a Muslim at your office, and because they were Muslim, asked them their view on Hamas and Palestine and radical Islamic Jihad - you would be being Islamophobic.

If you started explaining to them, that you, in your wisdom had very strong anti-Islamic views based on your own bigoted interpretations that would also be Islamophobic.

However, if a Christian at your office was loudly condemning Hamas, and you asked them to account for their view of Israel's various negative behavior, you would be engaging someone in a political conversation.

That is not racist, or bigoted. It is a conversation.

You are not a victim.

I hope that clears this up.

OP posts:
minipin · 18/10/2023 19:23

I've found your post helpful OP, thankyou.

Rabbitcar · 18/10/2023 19:25

People have been criticised on here for being antisemitic when they haven’t broken any of these rules.

I have never seen a single occasion when they have been defended when in this position. It’s sadly a very one sided approach.

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:25

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 19:21

Not sure I agree. I never call anyone Nazis, but other people do use the word to describe a variety of things/people/groups/etc. So I don't think it's correct that it is only used as a slur against Israel. Yes, it is used, but not exclusively.

Not that I think it should be allowed to describe anyone other than the actual Nazis and those who prescribe to neo Nazi ideals in such a way.

Edited

Well when you find someone calling Israel or Jews Nazis, maybe ask then who else they classify in the same ways - as I assure you there is nothing Israel has ever done that 50 other countries are not doing and have not done (including the one next door).

If they can't account for that, maybe ask them why they have singled out the world's only Jewish state for a hyperbolic, preposterous comparison to the group of people who committed the single biggest act of Jew hate in history.

As opposed to, say, the chaps next door who are literally saying they want to wipe all Jews off the planet...

SMH!

OP posts:
LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:27

Gruntsandgroans · 18/10/2023 19:18

Is it better to say that the Israelis are looking for another Nakba then? People like to make comparisons and when people think of genocide I think they automatically think of the Nazis. Perhaps just saying that Israel are looking for another Nakba would be fairer and more accurate, especially when a member of the Israeli parliament actually called for a Nakba more that will overshadow the one in 1948? Maybe if people spoke about Nakba more then the Nazis wouldn't be their first thought?

Compare it to whatever you want, as long as it's not the Nazis.

People can then debate you on what you're saying fair and square.

There's no need to compare them to the Nazis and it's immensely offensive.

OP posts:
Lonelycrab · 18/10/2023 19:27

this Is getting no one anywhere

TrishM80 · 18/10/2023 19:28

The problem is anyone who criticises Israel, no matter how reasonable, is automatically labelled antisemitic. And the Israeli govt and supporters are very quick to use the term often without any justification.

NalafromtheLionKing · 18/10/2023 19:30

This shouldn’t even need saying. I think it is an absolute disgrace that Jews are persecuted simply for being who they are and that London Jewish schools and synagogues specifically need to be protected (which I believe was the case even before this happened).

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:32

TrishM80 · 18/10/2023 19:28

The problem is anyone who criticises Israel, no matter how reasonable, is automatically labelled antisemitic. And the Israeli govt and supporters are very quick to use the term often without any justification.

Well, here is a forum where people have been "criticising Israel" for about a week. Can you link to one of this plethora of posts where someone is labelled antisemitic for "reasonable" criticism of Israel.

It would be helpful maybe to the thread to see an example of this

OP posts:
GotMooMilk · 18/10/2023 19:33

I think a lot of anti semitism is exacerbated by a lack of exposure. We live in a big multicultural city- we have Christian, Muslim, Sikh and Hindu friends. The kids have children of lots of different religions in their class. I rarely meet Jewish people socially and there is a large Jewish community where many of them live/shop/go to Jewish schools and work. I’m sure to an extent there is a chicken and egg effect as they feel more comfortable living in their community it means many Jewish people don’t integrate as much.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 19:34

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:15

I am not sure what was said, but these guidelines are a list of no nos, that are very clear cut. The rest is usually a debate and some judgement does come into it.

Debate can be spirited, and being spirited is generally not antisemitic. People do have bias. Which again isn't in an of itself antisemitic.

However: There's also a very clear sense for Jews that some people have fixation with the crimes of Israel. They are almost incandescent with it. Hate actually reeks off them like they almost can't catch a breath. They don't go a day without obsessing over Israel / Palestine.

That feels different to "criticism of Israel" and it feels like it's crossing into the trop of Jews being demonic or uniquely evil.

Don't you think?

As i said, not clear cut and judgment plays a role but if someone was exhibiting those behaviors I would feel very uncomfortable and would consider them an antisemite.

I am not saying that's what you did, just explaining why it might be that some of us are sensitive. It feels like being repeatedly kicked.

Whilst I agree there are some people who are antisemetic, and some people whose antisemetism is visceral and incredibly hateful, I don't agree that out of a group of random people on a discussion forum that there are as many people who are antisemetic as the number who are accused of it, a lot of the time on a very flimsy basis.

I also think, from what I've seen on previous threads, that some people take a criticism of Israel as automatically being antisemetic, when there's been no evidence of that.

Obviously Israel gets "singled out" on a thread about Israel because the thread isn't about somewhere else, and people can't be expected to include everywhere else they think has problems.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 19:35

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:32

Well, here is a forum where people have been "criticising Israel" for about a week. Can you link to one of this plethora of posts where someone is labelled antisemitic for "reasonable" criticism of Israel.

It would be helpful maybe to the thread to see an example of this

It's difficult when the threads have been reported and deleted.

HeyLovee · 18/10/2023 19:44

NalafromtheLionKing · 18/10/2023 19:30

This shouldn’t even need saying. I think it is an absolute disgrace that Jews are persecuted simply for being who they are and that London Jewish schools and synagogues specifically need to be protected (which I believe was the case even before this happened).

Not just in London, nationwide and always has been the case. I went to Jewish primary school nearly 30 years ago and we had security guards, and posters up about what to do in a bomb threat back then. Wasn’t til I was older I realised not all
schools have these things. It’s only got worse since then 💔

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 19:50

LemonyTicket · 18/10/2023 19:25

Well when you find someone calling Israel or Jews Nazis, maybe ask then who else they classify in the same ways - as I assure you there is nothing Israel has ever done that 50 other countries are not doing and have not done (including the one next door).

If they can't account for that, maybe ask them why they have singled out the world's only Jewish state for a hyperbolic, preposterous comparison to the group of people who committed the single biggest act of Jew hate in history.

As opposed to, say, the chaps next door who are literally saying they want to wipe all Jews off the planet...

SMH!

I don't feel my post justified this response.

I don't know anyone who to my knowledge has said that, so when you say next time, it would be a first.

I have heard others being called Nazis and, in the case of the UK, having their policies being compared to early Nazi policies.

I'm not disagreeing that some people use it against Israel, only that it is exclusively used against Israel.

AFieldGuideToTrees · 18/10/2023 19:53

HeyLovee · 18/10/2023 19:44

Not just in London, nationwide and always has been the case. I went to Jewish primary school nearly 30 years ago and we had security guards, and posters up about what to do in a bomb threat back then. Wasn’t til I was older I realised not all
schools have these things. It’s only got worse since then 💔

This is just awful. 😪

Gruntsandgroans · 18/10/2023 19:53

As opposed to, say, the chaps next door who are literally saying they want to wipe all Jews off the planet...

Right but Israel are the ones who actually have the means to commit genocide, have declared that they want to commit genocide again and set about denying food, water and power to a country. You can see why people are concerned that Israel are the ones that may actually commit genocide and not hamas? That is why that particular criticism is put to Israel and not Hamas.

Martin83 · 18/10/2023 19:54

I think it's very difficult not to criticize Israel, the biggest criticism is coming from within the country. So I as a Jew can criticize the Israeli failed policy towards Gaza but a non Jewish person would be labeled as antisemitic. I think it's unfair.

ToastWithJamAndButter · 18/10/2023 19:58

I will say this though. On another thread I had a completely unwarranted accusation of antisemitism aimed at my comment. I reported it and the comment was removed by MN. These can be seen as personal attacks. So that is an option.

RoyalImpatience · 18/10/2023 20:02

@LemonyTicket.
I found this really helpful including the explanation thank you

JSMill · 18/10/2023 20:11

WhatWouldJeevesDo · 18/10/2023 17:16

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

But
“You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be.”

I’m having difficulty reconciling these two statements.

No you can't. Also why don't the Palestinian people have a right to self determination?

MyDarlingWhatIfYouFly · 18/10/2023 20:14

I think the original post is incredibly informative and I wouldn't have thought to research it myself.

I know this is probably an unanswerable question, but why is anti-semitism so hidden in plain sight? There are many people in this country who are openly racist, but anti-semitism seems to come from those who are vocally "anti-racist" when it comes to other minorities. From what I see most of them have no connection to Israel or Palestine personally but take this conflict to heart when others in other parts of the world are largely ignored.

Until I was university age I don't think I had ever known a Jewish person, I knew nothing about the religion and not much about their history and I'd imagine many others have the same experience - so why is this small country in the Middle East such a huge focus in the uk??