To share the actual definition of antisemitism

[LemonyTicket]

The boards have been full for a week with cries of woe that you can't criticise Israel without being accused of antisemitism. So to make life easy, below is a summary of what defines antisemitism as agreed by more or less the leading experts in the world. If you'd like to discuss Israel without being antisemitic, you can follow these guidelines to say what you would like to say without causing pain to Jewish people:

POINT 1
What is particular in classic antisemitism is the idea that Jews are linked to the forces of evil. This stands at the core of many anti-Jewish fantasies, such as the idea of a Jewish conspiracy in which “the Jews” possess hidden power that they use to promote their own collective agenda at the expense of other people. This linkage between Jews and evil continues in the present: in the fantasy that “the Jews” control governments with a “hidden hand,” that they own the banks, control the media, act as “a state within a state.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

So when you're criticising Israel, please do so without implying Jews, Israel or anything relating to Jews is part of a plot to control things or act in evil ways generally or that Jews or any Jewish organisation have control over institutions. This isn't how other countries are spoken about and it's particularly antisemitic in line with Nazi propaganda.

POINT 2
Antisemitism can be manifested in words, visual images, and deeds. Examples of antisemitic words include utterances that all Jews are wealthy, inherently stingy, or unpatriotic. In antisemitic caricatures, Jews are often depicted as grotesque, with big noses and associated with wealth

This is one most people instinctively know is racist - to apply certain characteristics to Jews - like having lots of money or big noses etc.

POINT 3
Antisemitism can be direct or indirect, explicit or coded. For example, “The Rothschilds control the world” is a coded statement about the alleged power of “the Jews” over banks and international finance. Similarly, portraying Israel as the ultimate evil or grossly exaggerating its actual influence can be a coded way of racializing and stigmatizing Jews. In many cases, identifying coded speech is a matter of context and judgement, taking account of these guidelines

This means, don't be antisemitic when using any words which clearly refer to Jews in particular. "Jews own the banks" is antisemitic. It remains antisemitic when you substitute words, like "The Israel lobby owns the banks" or "Zionists own the banks" or "George Soros owns the banks". Substituting code words is not a free pass for being antisemitic.

POINT 4
Denying or minimizing the Holocaust

A pretty obvious one which needs no explanation.

POINT 5
Applying the symbols, images and negative stereotypes of classical antisemitism to the State of Israel

So this means taking classic antisemitic tropes or canards, such as "The Jews are puppet masters" and applying the same language to the only Jewish state. We see right through this, please don't do it!

POINT 6
Requiring people, because they are Jewish, publicly to condemn Israel or Zionism (for example, at a political meeting)

This means making a Jewish person, anywhere, anytime feel obligated, pressured or required in any way to condemn Israel or Zionism. It means you don't "put them on the spot" in public by singling them out as a Jew to ask their opinions on Israel's atrocities. Their views of these things will be coloured by a completely different perspective to yours, and likely more personal knowledge, their family history and so on - so please be respectful of their right to determine their Jewish identity and opinions without your critique.

POINT 7
Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion

Another one which should be obvious, but clearly "gas the Jews" is unacceptable.

POINT 8
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Again, fairly obvious.

POINT 9
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations

This is a common form of prejudice in Britain where Jews are frequently accused of being in on some plot with Israel, or part of a group of Jews acting against their own country for the benefit of Israel. It's madness, and please don't do it.

POINT 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor

Jews, like everyone else, have a right to self-determination. If you don't make other countries feel ashamed of existing or if you don't make other groups feel ashamed of their national identity; then Jews should be entitled to the same. You are free to have your own opinion on if Israel should be a country or not, and how it should be. You are not free to deny Jews the right to decide that for themselves though.

POINT 11
Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Another very common one, where Israel is often held to a very different standard to other countries. An allowance can be made for the fact surrounding countries generally aren't democracies and as such are generally held to a different standard, but you should aim to treat Israel in the same, balanced way that you would treat any other country.

POINT 12
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis

This is another very common one. Do not compare things which are incomparable just for the sake of hyperbole. It's very offensive. Almost every Jew in existence lost family in the Shoah. Please don't use it to attack.

Those are the things you can't do. What you can do is criticise Israel robustly, like you would any other country

@Trulywonderful So if we call Israelis or Jewish people Nazis (and I am not doing that), or say they’re behaving like Nazis (ie committing genocide), it’s antisemitic, but you accusing Muslims of being Nazis is not islamophobic?

Don't compare stuff to nazis in general it isn't cool and if doing it to Jews is antisemitism

If people in power somewhere are behaving like the Nazis did at the start of their murderous regime, with the way they talk about and treat minority groups, then surely comparing their behaviour to how the Nazis started out and began to treat others needs calling out and comparing to - otherwise we risk what happened in Nazi Germany happening again.

No. My original point was that your claim that arguing for a one-state solution (with everyone having equal rights) doesn’t necessarily mean being antisemitic according to point 10
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination.
isn’t credible.
I’m not saying "ah but they can't live together therefore Israel has to exist"
I’m saying Israel has to maintain its Jewish character in order to fulfil the Jewish people’s right to self-determination.

If you can all Jews or Israel nazis that is antisemitism

If you call Jews that actually were nazis in the war nazis that is fine (There were a few) or even if you find one today that loves Hitler. Then you obviously can call them a nazi.

If Muslims or their state don't believe in nazi ideology or praise hilter they are not nazis. You are being islamophobic.

Those Muslims that do believe love Hitler are obviously nazis.

I actually talking about some Arabs still believing in nazis ideology rather than just Muslims. However the same thing applies when working out who to call a nazi and who not to call a nazi. Same applies for westerners it isn't a difficult thing to understand really.

I have not accused Muslims of being nazis. I have said quite rightly that some Palestinians and Arabs believe in nazi ideology so are nazis. It is also your take that all Palestinians and Arabs are Muslims which isn't true either. Plus there are people that believe in nazi ideology all over the world. Trust me I know I am a Jew!

Not sure why you would think it's antisemitic unless you're singling out the Jewish state, which you're very clearly not.

Israel isn't a particularly religious state incidentally, well not relative to some of it's neighbours at least. As an ethno-religion the ethnic and cultural tie is strong though. As a proportion of the population, Israeli Jews are less religious than Israeli Muslims, Christians and Druze.

As an atheist I understand the sentiment, but this just isn't going to happen. And in any case, some of the most repressive regimes over the last 100 years have been atheist states. I agree about the UK which should should make a bigger effort to secularise the state in line with the population, which I think is over 50% now that don't identify with any religion, e.g. Anglican bishops sitting in the HoL has always seemed a bit bonkers to me.

@Trulywonderful You called a ‘large number of Palestinians’ Nazis. If I called ‘a large number’ of Israelis or Jewish people anything even remotely negative (let alone Nazis) I guarantee you I’d be accused of anti-semitism.

This kind of double standard is part of what incenses people so much about the current situation.

If there was evidence that a large number of a said group were a said thing like nazis it isn't incorrect to do so.

Like if I said a large number of British people believe in the ideology of the Labour Party.

That's not what you said:

You said "" It is because a large number of Palestinians are still nazis""

@Trulywonderful On that basis I think I have sufficient grounds to say a large number of Israelis support genocide, but I don’t imagine that will go down too well.

5.4 million people are Palestinian.

How many do you think are Nazis?

nc14

It all started like this with the nazi thing:

"The German academic, Mattihas Küntzel, has attempted to fill in the gaps in this short but absorbing book.

Nazi propaganda regarded the spoken word as more effective than the written word and began to broadcast in Arabic to the Middle East as early as April 1939.

The broadcasts stopped just a few days before Hitler shot himself.

The radio station operated from the village of Zeesen, south of Berlin and ensured that the teachings of the Quran were the centrepiece of the propaganda. Küntzel argues that this underpinned Islamist sentiments towards Jews per se — and not simply the Zionists of Mandatory Palestine.
Anti-colonial activists such as Subhas Chandra Bose in India and Anwar Sadat in Egypt worked with the Germans on the basis of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, instead believed that once the Nazis had liberated Mandatory Palestine from the British they would probably exterminate its Jewish population.

This was the implied assurance that Hitler gave to the Mufti during their infamous meeting in Berlin.

Küntzel also points out that the Nazis funded the Mufti and some 50,000 Reichmarks were provided by the German Foreign Office in the closing days of the war."

Fascinating stuff and shows just how Hitler worked too.

I will check out what I have in my folders numbers wise for current population believing this stuff. Last time I did research on this was in 2021 so they may be a couple of years out of date but will give you a rough idea.

Will be back in a bit

@Trulywonderful I’m not asking for evidence of your statement, I am saying I too can provide evidence for my statement but I would nevertheless be called anti-semitic for making it, whilst you seem to consider yourself exempt from criticism and being called islamophobic?

What about the other Semitic-language speakers such as Arabs? What is hatred towards them called?

Why isn’t hatred, ill treatment, etc against Jews not anti-Jewish/anti-Jew?

I've honestly got no idea why you are debating with me.

Denying Jews the right to self determination is on the two official definitions of antisemitism.

Denying Muslims the right to self determination (in Palestinian and elsewhere) is on the official definition of Islamophobia.

I have tried to explain the reasons why. I agree with them. If you don't, you don't.

Although it sound very much like you only have a problem with Jews having it (which is antisemitic)

No, but Israel is not a religious state. Half the Jews in Israel are atheists.

No, it's not. Because Muslims were not exterminated in the Holocaust.

However, calling Jews terrorists is not antisemitic, but is Islamophobic.

Yes, great, however it's an idiotic statement.

Because if you write out all the various behavior of the Nazis, and attitudes of the Nazis in a long list and then do a comparison you'd find:

a) The area BEFORE Israel was far more similar (Jews were discriminated against by law, made to wear yellow stars etc)

b) the countries AROUND Israel are far more similar. Including the one next door that has outright said it's entire goal is to kill every Jew

So it is idiotic.

The only reason people make such a ludicrous comparison is to stick the boot in the Jews by comparing them to the people who are famous for the worst acts against Jews of all time.

Jews have actually never, in their history, showed the slightest fucking interest in exterminating anyone. Largely just in being left the hell alone.

@LemonyTicket How is calling Jews terrorists islamophobic? Is it because Israelis/Jews ‘own’ the term ‘Nazis’ and Muslims ‘own’ the term ‘terrosists’? It makes no sense.

In any event I didn’t call Israelis/Jews Nazis, but I think calling someone a Nazi is offensive to most people, Israeli/Jewish or not, even if Israeli/Jewish people might find it more triggering.

@LemonyTicket There are a lot of articles and reports calling what is happening in Gaza ‘ethnic cleansing’ so I don’t think that last statement of yours is true.

5.4 million people are Palestinian

Err...I don't think so! More on the lines of 20,000

@LemonyTicket There are 5.35m people in Palestine, divided between Gaza and the West Bank, not 20,000.

In no way do I think that I am except from being called islamophobic. It is just a matter of fact that if there is evidence via photos or research that shows a large amount of Arabs have nazi ideology. If some Arabs actually say they agree with Hitler or nazi views they are nazis. I am not calling them nazis they themselves are doing that in their own words and actions.

Now if I had said all Arabs or Muslims are nazis you would have a point because only a large number are displaying a love of nazi symbols and say stuff like Hitler was right or He should have finished the job. I never accused all Palestinians of being nazis. Reread whI wrote.

The IHRA definition of antisemitism is widely accepted and largely self-evident and I mainly think it is good.

Some details are very good, such as the use of "democratic" in "Requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation" as it would be unreasonable and unworkable without it.

Some parts are lazy/carelessly worded eg. "Claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor". It’s not antisemitic to say that Israeli government policy is racist (just as you might say some British government policy is racist), but to call the Jewish state a racist state by design is antisemitic.

I agree totally with the two clauses about the Holocaust, but the word "Shoah" should be used with respect to Jews (as Israel does itself), and Holocaust should cover all the democide in WW2 when, in Europe, 16 million were killed of which 6 million were Jews.

Two clauses I do not like as written:

"Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel than to the interests of their own nations." I would agree if it said "accusing all Jewish..." because there will certainly be some citizens of other countries more loyal to Israel, some of whom may be dual citizens. This is also applicable to many other countries including UK citizens who may be more loyal to eg. Ireland than to the UK where they live.

"Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis". I do not agree with this clause at all, and it is nothing to do with Godwin's Law. In many cases it may be incorrect to make a comparison, and definitely if was raised solely to hurt or offend, but if the comparison is valid then it should be OK to state this, even if it offends. I note that even Jewish Shoah survivors have raised this comparison, particularly referencing Nazi policy in the 1933-1939 period.

Which statement specifically is not true?

Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area.

Palestinian Arab population of Israel has doubled since 1948, and their wider population has quadrupled.

There might be people using words like "ethnic cleansing" but I'd suspect they were probably a hyperbolic idiot using phrases very irresponsibly.

It would be more accurate to say Jews have been ethnically cleansed out of the middle east - their populations have been almost completely removed from every single country surrounding.