To ask these questions about Palestine

[Workplacenoob]

Why did the Palestinians vote hamas in?

Why don't they topple their government?

Why haven't the rich countries in the ME been pouring money into Palestine over the past few years? Don't they consider that area holy land/aren't they interested in protecting it?

Just as Europe opened its borders to the refugees of Ukraine, why hasn't the ME done the same for Palestine?

I understand Iran funds Hamas. But why?

Actually they would have a problem, namely the fact that they were ethnically cleansed from their land by militia groups - then called terrorists - to establish the state of Israel. Also that they are treated as second class citizens under a system of legal apartheid. No amount of money will compensate for that.

I didn't hear that all of the dead Palestinian children perpetrated anything? What is it you think that they did to deserve death?

How do you think Hamas forced Israel to murder them all and to commit crimes against humanity? Are you trying to say that the Israeli pm is actually part of Hamas? Personally I think that that is a conspiracy theory gone too far.

Palestine is also the recipient of significant aid, uk is supposed to be giving 29 million next year. Arab countries do contribute a lot, Qatar in particular (I think billions in their case). But you can’t force a government to spend it on it’s people. The EU helped build a de-salination plant there, do it’s not like there have been no international efforts to help.

Just found this on Hamas finances

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-cash-to-crypto-global-finance-maze-israels-sights-2023-10-16/

You know what would have partly compensated for the native Jews being literally second class citizens, dhimmis, under a system of legal apartheid for centuries after the Islamic conquest? Giving them a little state of their own. Yet in 1938, even 500 square miles was too much for the Arabs to stomach. Funny that.

£29m to Hamas?

How could we know if it goes on weapons or otherwise

I assume thats the value of aid but may be partly given in goods or services etc. I really hope we don’t just hand over a bag of cash. the article I posted said that some Qatari money is handed to Israelis who hand it directly to individual Gazans. Tbh though that doesn’t stop Hamas from shaking them down afterwards but clearly there are efforts to try to make sure the money goes to normal civilians.

Would you trust an organisation that injures and kills their own children for political gain? Palestinian children's life would improve instantly if Hamas ceased to be in charge of them and their families. Don't blame Israel for Hamas abusing their own people.

Egypt has the second largest debt in the world (after Ukraine).

They don't want to open the border and be responsible for the care of so many refugees - they can't afford to and the influx of so many will cause internal tensions.

There has been some speculation that one of the reasons they've not opened the border is because they are looking to use the opportunity to strike a deal with the US for debt write off and assurances over aid. There's also been some suggestions that they have been putting up barbed wire fences close to the border in preparation for the border opening so they can keep the Palestinians there. They also have certain limitations on what activities they can do in the area - they need approval of the Israeli government (because of historic issues).

In fairness to the Egyptians all opening the border would do is effectively 'shift the problem' onto their land. What happens in 10 - 15 years time if something happens again from this area and Israel are upset? Do Israel attack Egyptian land to 'deal with the Palestinian problem'?

The Lebanese government doesn't effectively control the whole country due to areas being controlled by Hezbollah. Egypt also risks this, if they open the border.

So it's easy to see why even Palestinian sympathisers have reason to be reluctant to help in practical terms with humanitarian assistance and opportunities.

The cancellation of the Biden - Egyptian meeting has to be seen through this lens. Egypt wants to up the pressure on the US because the optics of the hospital bombing (which frankly was inevitable one way or another due to the density of Gaza - a similar incident was always likely to happen and it illustrates why Israel acting aggressively in response to the attack was never going to end well). The US is isolated internationally in many respects on this even though the UK generally has always been sympathetic to Israel.

The UK government has said they believe there are about 60000 British citizens currently in Gaza. And any response the UK government makes needs to be seen through this lens. We are much more likely to have protests here due to the sheer number of relatives living in the UK.

I did think that the UK response of flying the Israeli flag after the attacks was essentially ill judged for that reason. It's not reflecting changing demographics and public sentiment. It doesn't help us and it doesn't really help Israel in the long run.

The pressure on the US to sort out the whole sorry mess and inject some rationality into the Israeli government is intense. The comments from Israeli about 'tent city' or 'killing them all' are deeply problematic.

I don't know that they can sort it out.

A lot of people are going to die. The hospital bombing is just the start. Unfortunately.

No one wants the Palestinians. No one.

@Noicant
According to your article "Gas-rich Qatar too has paid hundreds of millions of dollars to Gaza since 2014, at one point spending $30 million per month to help operate the enclave's sole power plant and to support needy families and civil servants (...) The funds are transferred electronically from Qatar to Israel. Israeli and U.N. officials hand-carry cash over the border to Gaza".

I didn't realise Qatar was so heavily involved: "Qatar walks a foreign policy tightrope, hosting the region's largest U.S. military base, the Taliban and other groups".
Maybe Qatar could be quite central to resolving this conflict.

They say money is the root of all evil.
I have to say religion is up there with it.

Man's inhumanity to man.
I despair.

Palestine receives huge amounts of aid which appears to be spent on weapons rather than improving life for Palestinian people.

Hamas hide these weapons amongst its people. They blame Israel fir everything that goes wrong even when they misfire rockets and kill their own it's an opportunity to suggest Israel did it. Pro hamas or Pro Palestine will believe anything hamas say despite evidence yo the contry.

The aim of hamas isn't peace its the total eradication of a people...Jewish people.

Indeed

I didn't hear that all of the dead Palestinian children perpetrated anything? What is it you think that they did to deserve death?

@Gruntsandgroans
Please tell where in my post I mentioned that they did something to deserve death?
Do you have problems with reading comprehension or are you just trying to be facetious?

@Pollyputhekettleon would the English have stomached giving even 500 square miles of England to the those who had been subjected to the holocaust by Germans? A holocaust they were not responsible for? Would it have been acceptable to say let’s chuck all the people living here out, steal their homes and make them refugees in their own country for 70 years while cooping them up either in an open air prison, or under military occupation and a system of apartheid ? Where the occupying power can just decide to switch of their water and electricity and block their food and medicine?

yeah, I don’t think so

think about what you’d be prepared to “stomach” before you demand it of others.

It's fairly early and no doubt the usual slogan chanters will be here soon, pushing views based on no more than some Twitter/Tiktok trash

In fact I see some are being deleted already, and all credit to HQ for acting so swiftly on this, as they did with last night's abominations

@Workplacenoob Qatar is an Islamic state. Islamic law is the main source of legislation. Non-muslims continue to be second class citizens. It's just a watered down version of the dhimmitude imposed after the Islamic conquest on non-muslims in the Middle East. They have no reason to resolve this problem other than by way of abolishing the Jewish state on Islamic territory, because its existence is the only problem they see.

I don't know if anyone is interested, but here's a bit of biblical context which might help to see how deeply ingrained/far back this goes.

The conflict is said to have begun in the time of Abraham (around 1900 BC). Abraham and his wife Sarah couldn't have children even though God had promised Abraham he would be 'the father of many nations'. At Sarah's suggestion, Abraham slept with Hagar (his wife's maid) and she had a son called Ishmael. And then against all odds, Sarah also conceived and went on to have a son called Isaac. A huge family row broke out and Hagar and Ishmael were dispelled from the camp of the Israelites. The Bible describes Ishmael as 'He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers' (Genesis 16:12)

This is the origin of the war (apparently), two half brothers and a bitterly divided family that's been at war ever since.

I don't know the Quran but it's possible this story is told from another angle. I'd definitely be interested to know!

These days (to answer the OP), I think (and this is just my opinion) the conflict is really more broadly a war against the perceived evils of the West. Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and ISIS are cut from the same cloth and are united in their hatred of Jews and the West. Israel symbolises both and I absolutely believe the Palestinians are being used as weapons to achieve a much bigger aim, the destruction of Israel and the establishment of some kind of caliphate.

I've worked in conflict zones and been to both areas and have to admit I've avoided commenting to a lot of threads as many people are churning out phrases they've read but have little understanding of. Not saying I do have in-depth knowledge (defo no expert!) but I have seen up close how Hamas operate and they do treat the people as expendable weapons. It is also not in their political/religious interests for Gaza to be prosperous or thrive in any way and so if you're trapped into that regime (and maybe even brainwashed by it), it's not going to be possible to 'rise up'.

I don't know what the answer is but Israel will believe they have to display overwhelming force in order to defeat an overwhelming broader evil. Is it actually possible to defeat an evil which is fuelled by a family conflict that goes back 4000 years? I don't know. I do know that a two state solution is not possible while Hamas is in power though.

I think anyone who gives soundbite answers which begin with 'it's simple...' really doesn't know what they're talking about.

Why do people always come up with this bizarre analogy? The Jews are native to the Middle East. They were there before Islam. There were always Jews living there. It's their land as much as it is the Arab's land. Unless you're smoking something very strong, Jews were not living in England before the English.

And spare me all the drama, it's just a way to avoid dealing with the point I made because it clearly makes you all deeply uncomfortable.

OP I’m asking the same questions. Why ME countries refuse to help Palestinian people? Why they are not taking refugees? And why they were not helping to fight off Hamas before to prevent what’s happening? Why Egyptian people are not demanding their government to open humanitarian corridor for Palestinians?
Where is help to Palestinians from their neighbours???

Since Jewish people have lived on the middle East for thousands of years. Judaism is older than the Islamic faith. Its where they are from.... Arabs invaded and took the lands.

England isn't where Jewish people originally came from.

Indeed when Russia attack Ukraine lots of European countries welcomed them in.

In the middle east most Arab countries don't welcome Palestinian people

I'm trying to make you see how stupid your views are. You think that people think that Hamas are the victims? No they don't. People don't give a shit about Hamas. People know that the victims are the innocent civilians. Amongst them 100s probably well over a 1000 of them children. I haven't seen one person suggest that Hamas are victims. We all know they aren't. We have all seen the piles of children bodies though.

The same way that we all know that hamas cannot make Israel do anything. Israel have chosen to kill. They have chosen collective punishments. They have chosen crimes against humanity. Those things are all on Israel. Just like the crimes of Hamas are on them. Hamas made me do it is not an acceptable excuse for a modern, democratic country to use to justify the indescrimite killing of 1000s of innocent people. That is why people are outraged and disgusted with them.

@Desertrose2023
In fairness you've come on here with an opening post about the Koran. Actually this thread was intended to be neither pro Palestine nor pro Israel and was meant to discuss specifically how Palestine fits into the wider dynamics and perspectives in the ME, and how that position is expressed in the responses to the conflict. Have you got any thoughts or opinions on the precise questions I have in the OP?

Sad that the first replies did not make clear that the election that hamas won was in 2006!! Half the population of gaza were not even born.

There has been no election since

This is the best comment I have read all week. You really are onto something.

Hamas are using and abusing Palestinians for political gain while framing Israel. The photos they have shared are staged and digitally manipulated. I am not saying there are no civilian casualties (there are many) but that it is first and foremost hamas who is responsible for it. They also undermine peace talks. They're a sneaky bunch but ultimately their hate and mono culture will be their undoing. They have no diversity of thought and suppress any opposition. Top tip to Hamas: If you don't want your pictures of wounded civilians to look staged, you have to not stage them. 👌