To ask these questions about Palestine

[Workplacenoob]

Why did the Palestinians vote hamas in?

Why don't they topple their government?

Why haven't the rich countries in the ME been pouring money into Palestine over the past few years? Don't they consider that area holy land/aren't they interested in protecting it?

Just as Europe opened its borders to the refugees of Ukraine, why hasn't the ME done the same for Palestine?

I understand Iran funds Hamas. But why?

@Coughingdodger The article as a whole, sure. She was responding to the first part of the first sentence. Don't you think it's strange that he said what Israel was founded upon but doesn't mention why they felt that way in 1948?

The part of the article you quoted doesn't actually try to prove that their current fears are irrational. The fact they got lots of sympathy of course doesn't either. The article just treats their fear as something to be managed, almost therapy-style.

Would you not think that’s an important part of independent mediation?

@Coughingdodger Therapy? No. Mediation is not therapy. But how would it be helpful for a mediator to go in with a position that one or both sides' are being irrational, without apparently considering whether they actually are or not?

Are you claiming their current fears are irrational simply because they got a lot of sympathy after the initial Hamas attacks?

@Pollyputhekettleon
No, but some of their current actions (withholding water, forcing a million people to leave their homes and hospitals) are disproportionate. Some saying it’s evil, others see it as a natural and understandable response to fear and anger. Whichever, it doesn’t seem particularly rational or sensible. Far from
eliminating Hamas it’s just radicalising a whole new generation of bereaved, traumatised, orphaned, homeless, angry people.

So from an observer’s point of view, even if the fear and anger are understandable, the current actions need to be deescalated - not just for the Gazans but for the Israelis themselves and for potentially a whole lot of other people too.

And the hostages should absolutely be returned - that should be part of any negotiations. The people who took or killed those people are criminals.

@ForeverScout -Dehumanising an entire group of people, considering them less worthy of basic human rights, is what leads to things like…the Holocaust?
I do agree with your first points, Jews were subjugated and persecuted for hundreds of years by colonisers of lands they lived in. Treated as sub human in the ‘Holy Land’ by Islamic conquests? Yes.
The attack you describe in Australia sounds utterly horrific, premeditated and appalling. But it reminds me more of Hamas’s massacre rather than Israel’s defensive manoeuvre.
I think we’ll have to agree to disagree about support for Israel being anything to do with white supremacy although I can see why you made that connection. The incident in your country clearly is linked to that.
I think the support for Israel is more to do with not acceding to terrorists who do not want an end to this. All Jews must be eradicated and not just from Israel. Where do they go next?

Ok, but it's important to say whether their fear is rational or not and be clear about it, it's not a minor point. And no doubt there are irrational fears on both sides, that's normal for any humans. I've never met a completely rational one, including myself.

You're working from the assumption that bad environmental conditions produce 'radicalization' and therefore terrorism. That's simply not universally agreed. The Russians in Chechnya, for example, did absolutely horrible things to quash that jihadist separatist movement, their strongman continues to do so, and it basically worked. The ideology will never go away, of course, but the actions are suppressed, which is about as good as it gets in this case. ETA in Spain was simply defeated, although Basque nationalism no doubt remains.

Terrorism is not and never has been a natural and inevitable response to trauma among groups, any more than it is among individuals. That's a left wing dogma that views terrorism as, like riots, 'the language of the oppressed' as MLK said.

Posted this on another thread and reposting here too. A good watch for those genuinely interested in what’s happening now.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4idQbwsvtUo

Yes, absolutely the Holocaust. Which is why I find it so concerning to see similar rhetoric that was used against Jews (and prior to that, to many indigenous people groups via colonisation) now applied to Muslims / Arabs / Palestinians. It is not acceptable applied against any people group, ever. We said never again. The question is, did we mean it?

The problem is when events like Hamas attacking Israel (terrible) and Israel starving out Gaza (also terrible) happen, various groups are active online seeking to further inflame and radicalise discourse. You see it after terror attacks, after school shootings, after Ukraine and now after Hamas / Israel. The language and talking points - on these threads and others online - are commonly expressed ideas in white supremacist extremist groups that seek to create further support for their own agendas. They co-opt tragedies and atrocities to their own advantage, which is why it is concerning - but not surprising - to see elements of Great Replacement conspiracies, a hyper-focus on the wrongs of specifically Arab peoples (when all empires and peoples have committed grave injustices across history), and the erroneous idea that terrorism is a specifically Arab problem arising from their innate brutality (KKK anyone? IRA? Soviets? Actual Nazis?)

And yes, March 15 2019 was a terrible day for NZ. But for those in the Islamic community here - and those who worked with them - who witnessed the rise of hate crimes and the above extremist ideologies freely expressed - it was not a surprise. Violence is always the end result of dehumanisation, which is why we must guard against it.

As for Israelis, and Palestinians, for all those caught in such a terrible situation I am so so sad. There are no easy answers, and there is radicalisation of elements of both their societies - and that radicalisation is also being attempted in our own societies via the internet. Peace feels very, very far.

To clarify, that is not to say there isn't genuine support for Israel. And I know white supremacist groups are also pushing extremism against Jews as well. But it has been disturbing seeing the type of thinking espoused by extremist groups verbalised on MN to this degree. It makes me afraid for both Jews and Muslims worldwide as the repercussions will almost certainly include reprisals on innocent members of both those groups.

@ForeverScout I completely agree with all your points. The inflammatory discourse seen on here and elsewhere, does nothing to help anyone. Indeed, to some it almost feels like a justification for their hatred (which is racially based but they can’t admit that outright, whether against Jews or Muslims ). It is as you say disturbing in the extreme.
Also apologies- I said Australia not NZ.

Oh well that's OK. Time to forgive and forget the holocaust then.
Don't know why the Palestinians go on and on about the nakba when nearly all of those who were adults are dead now.

I've wondered about this especially since it continues into the third and fourth generation. Why are they barred, is it because they're classified as stateless since Palestine was always part of somebody else's Empire rather than being an autonomous country?

Actually Jordan, uniquely among ME counties, did grant Palestinians citizenship. However, Palestinians, even if granted citizenship of another country, remain refugees in perpetuity.
Every other refugee in the world ceases to be a refugee (ie in need of international protectio) when they take citizenship of their country of asylum. Only Palestinians remain refugees forever.
Palestinians are also barred from taking part in any refugee resettlement programme.
The ONLY durable solution available to Palestinians is return whlle other refugees have the solutions of local integration and resettlement. Except return isn't an option (return where? To what?). So they are refugees in perpetuity, from generation to generation.
Why are Palestine refugees unique among the world's refugees? How does this be efkt them

I was reading earlier today about some of the Hamas leadership; billionaires and millionaires living luxury lifestyles. They've obtained this money through gangster kleptocracy, extortion, corruption and skimming off aid money.

Posters upthread keep recommending that we look up Shaun King. I heartily recommend that people do look up Shaun King, but probably not for the same reasons. Give yourselves a laugh and check him out.

I agree.
If people put more energy into calling out the shit that run hamas and are hamas rather than criticism of Israeli people etc then maybe things might change.

Hamas leadership in Qatar etc use their own people and seem to enjoy the ongoing terrorism and Israel fight back.

I'm always puzzled by people who would support medieval theocracies or kelptocracies over a secular democratic state with equal rights, a free press, trade unions and a cracking Gay Pride festival?
Lots of us aren't happy with the policies of our government, I'm sure we wouldn't want ISIS to come in and sort it out.

Yes it’s an odd one

It’s not a choice between ISIS and Burger King/Prozac. There are many stopping points in between.

Of course. However, in this conflict, it's going to be one outcome or the other for some people.

@ChalkWitch no worries at all. In many ways we're like the same country anyway, Australia = the West Island to us. Siblings, or cousins at the very most.

@Maireas This is what gets me too - why on earth are all these student groups supporting a movement who explicitly state that homosexuality is a sin that must be punished by death?!

Can you blame them? Jewish schools and Synogogues needing extra security, closing because of people throwing red paint on them, warning their pupils not to wear uniform in case it makes them a target. Anti-semitism didn't just disappear after WWII.

They often believe that those are just the views of, say, Hamas, not most Palestinians. They usually believe that such views are simply the result of oppression and colonisation. They believe the British introduced homophobia to the area and that the British created Salafism which is the source of such views within Islam. They would also say that even deeply homophobic cultures should not be genocided. This is to the extent that any of them have thought about it or are aware of it...

So groups of white people march through London chanting "from the river to the sea".
Ridiculous.
I've found the ignorance on here something else, though. One poster claimed that Israel controlled all Gaza's borders - look at a map at least! Also that Israel occupied it from 1948 when Egypt occupied Gaza 1949-67. Just basics.

People protesting in favour of Palestine are supporting its people. People who live under oppression and military occupation.

oh but I forgot Israel have got a great gay pride, I guess that excuses the genocide and apartheid then.