Page 11 | To ask these questions about Palestine

Workplacenoob · 2023-10-18T06:29:42+00:00

Why did the Palestinians vote hamas in? Why don't they topple their government? Why haven't the rich countries in the ME been pouring money into Palestine over the past few years? Don't they consider that area holy land/aren't they interested in protecting it? Just as Europe opened its borders to the refugees of Ukraine, why hasn't the ME done the same for Palestine? I understand Iran funds Hamas. But why?

Teddleshon · 19/10/2023 19:51

Oh right, it was Britain who introduced the concept of homophobia to Muslim countries 🙄

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 19:56

Teddleshon · 19/10/2023 19:51

Oh right, it was Britain who introduced the concept of homophobia to Muslim countries 🙄

It's something to do with the then British criminal code being used when they were in charge, I think. But yeah, the Brits have been terribly busy bees apparently.

Teddleshon · 19/10/2023 19:59

I guess Hamas just haven’t had a moment in their legislative programme to put it right. Fortunately Israel has managed it.

Coughingdodger · 19/10/2023 23:50

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 09:36

Ok, but it's important to say whether their fear is rational or not and be clear about it, it's not a minor point. And no doubt there are irrational fears on both sides, that's normal for any humans. I've never met a completely rational one, including myself.

You're working from the assumption that bad environmental conditions produce 'radicalization' and therefore terrorism. That's simply not universally agreed. The Russians in Chechnya, for example, did absolutely horrible things to quash that jihadist separatist movement, their strongman continues to do so, and it basically worked. The ideology will never go away, of course, but the actions are suppressed, which is about as good as it gets in this case. ETA in Spain was simply defeated, although Basque nationalism no doubt remains.

Terrorism is not and never has been a natural and inevitable response to trauma among groups, any more than it is among individuals. That's a left wing dogma that views terrorism as, like riots, 'the language of the oppressed' as MLK said.

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Would you call killing thousands of innocent people over a few days as well as blocking water, food and medical aid a rational response? What’s the difference between that and terrorism?

ForeverScout · 20/10/2023 03:52

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 19:26

They often believe that those are just the views of, say, Hamas, not most Palestinians. They usually believe that such views are simply the result of oppression and colonisation. They believe the British introduced homophobia to the area and that the British created Salafism which is the source of such views within Islam. They would also say that even deeply homophobic cultures should not be genocided. This is to the extent that any of them have thought about it or are aware of it...

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Oh good grief🙄would Islam be the only religion that forbids homosexuality then?That's news to my evangelical ex-church that called us satanic and kicked us out of leadership for supporting gay marriage - or indeed being anything other than virulently opposed to "the gay agenda". I lost count of the number of times "the gay agenda" was invoked through my teens / twenties before I had the good sense to get the hell out.

And let's not forget Uganda's 'kill the gays' law pushed by evangelical Christians, many calling on western theology. Being gay was a crime in NZ until the 80s. Many other countries too. But no, of course, silly me - it's ONLY Islamic people who have these beliefs, it's definitely ALL of them, and we in western nations have ALWAYS loved gay people and NEVER applied the death penalty unjustly to anyone. Therefore Arabs are terrible scum and must die. Wonderful logic there.

Maireas · 20/10/2023 05:59

You're absolutely right, @ForeverScout . Sadly, bigotry and intolerance cut across religious beliefs and cultural practices. I think often in our society we take so much freedom for granted, and get complacent, but still people are still marginalised and excluded in certain sections. I was also reading about the indigenous Australian people recently, which gave me pause for thought. Still massive inequality.
Two wrongs never make a right of course, and I mean that in the most broad sense about this wretched conflict.

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 07:02

@Coughingdodger

We were discussing whether their fear is rational or not. That's a separate question to whether their response is rational or not. I think you've agreed their fears are mostly rational. No doubt you'd differentiate between the rational grievances of Palestinians vs the irrational response of terrorist groups.

Terrorism has generally been distinguished from war, and from war crimes, based on whether or not the victims are civilians and whether or not the perpetrator is the army of a legitimate state or not. That's why there are different words. But you know that.

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 07:05

@ForeverScout

If I had wanted to claim that Islam is the only religion that forbids homosexuality, that all Muslims hold those beliefs, that western nations have always loved gay people and never applied the death penalty to anyone and that Arabs are terrible scum and must die, I would have done that.

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 07:45

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 07:02

@Coughingdodger

We were discussing whether their fear is rational or not. That's a separate question to whether their response is rational or not. I think you've agreed their fears are mostly rational. No doubt you'd differentiate between the rational grievances of Palestinians vs the irrational response of terrorist groups.

Terrorism has generally been distinguished from war, and from war crimes, based on whether or not the victims are civilians and whether or not the perpetrator is the army of a legitimate state or not. That's why there are different words. But you know that.

Not interested in calling a rose by any other name. Or “legitimate” wholesale slaughter by any other name. Sorry.

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 07:52

@Coughingdodger It could get very confusing if people stop using the words war, or war crimes, or any related words, and just use the words terrorism and terrorist instead. Apart from anything else a huge number of textbooks, especially in history, would have to be rewritten, as would international law.

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 07:56

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 07:52

@Coughingdodger It could get very confusing if people stop using the words war, or war crimes, or any related words, and just use the words terrorism and terrorist instead. Apart from anything else a huge number of textbooks, especially in history, would have to be rewritten, as would international law.

A lot of people would agree.

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 08:00

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 07:56

A lot of people would agree.

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A lot of people seem to think Orwell wrote instruction manuals, so that wouldn't convince me of the wisdom of anything, even if it were true.

ForeverScout · 21/10/2023 00:07

Pollyputhekettleon · 20/10/2023 07:05

@ForeverScout

If I had wanted to claim that Islam is the only religion that forbids homosexuality, that all Muslims hold those beliefs, that western nations have always loved gay people and never applied the death penalty to anyone and that Arabs are terrible scum and must die, I would have done that.

Making insinuations rather than direct statements then claiming deniability are exactly how extremist groups inflame discourse online. Your tactics - and underlying beliefs - are pretty clear. The funny thing is, the tactics are the same no matter whether the target is Muslim, Jewish, LGBTQ, BIPOC etc. Which makes it very very easy to identify especially across multiple threads as you have been.

Whether this is intentional on your behalf, or learned behaviour, is another matter. Eg you could belong to an extremist group engaging disingenuously, or you could simply have consumed extremist-leaning social media to the degree that you've taken on the characteristics of their engagement.

Either way, it's not helpful to anyone - least of all Jews who have had and are having similar tactics used against them. Regardless of the target, all of it results in violence to innocent people. I would hope that is not an outcome you want.

Valerianandfoxglovesoup · 21/10/2023 05:27

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Pollyputhekettleon · 21/10/2023 08:29

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Who are you talking to?

Original poster

Workplacenoob · 21/10/2023 09:40

@Valerianandfoxglovesoup
You keep saying you are in the ME and cringing but you aren't making any effort to enhance understanding from an insider position

OP posts:

ChickenNugget6 · 21/10/2023 22:34

Workplacenoob · 18/10/2023 08:25

I'm trying to think of a western alternative scenario. Since we're pretty secular these days it would have to be a cultural threat rather than a religious one, so let's use Greece as the "cradle of our civilisation".
If Turkey was turning Greece into an open air prison and punishing the Greeks on the grounds that it once belonged to the Ottoman Empire and should belong to Turkey, I'm pretty sure that the West would flood Greece with money and possibly engage in outright war, purely on principle, because Greece matters to us in terms of our story and identity as westerners.
BTW I realise my analogy is totally not an exact one, I'm just trying to find something with a similar existential feel

The thing is ... A war with Israel is a war with the US. No ME country wants to start that war through funding Palestine.

CatsArePawesome · 30/10/2023 04:35

EsmaCannonball · 19/10/2023 16:41

I was reading earlier today about some of the Hamas leadership; billionaires and millionaires living luxury lifestyles. They've obtained this money through gangster kleptocracy, extortion, corruption and skimming off aid money.

Posters upthread keep recommending that we look up Shaun King. I heartily recommend that people do look up Shaun King, but probably not for the same reasons. Give yourselves a laugh and check him out.

You said to go look at Shaun King for “a laugh”. This is ghoulish.

Shaun King is currently sharing the atrocities happening on the ground in Gaza to his millions of social media followers. We’re talking graphic videos of Palestinian baby after baby massacred in their sleep. He’s a voice for victims.

It’s not a laughing matter.

CatsArePawesome · 30/10/2023 04:36

Very sad but not surprised to see the amount of thinly and not so thinly-veiled bigotry towards Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims allowed on this and other Mumsnet threads.

I get it, you think they’re just “animals”. Denigrate them and then justify their murders.

All genocides work the same.

Desertrose2023 · 30/10/2023 04:51

Every morning I wake up to the images of more Palestinian kids slaughtered by the Israeli war machine and then I come on mumsnet, a parenting website, and see posts from genocide apologists. It’s depressing.

CatsArePawesome · 30/10/2023 12:02

@Desertrose2023 and others reading, please don’t be disheartened. Anyone can and everyone is seeing what is happening is awful.

Protests are swelling in numbers, fundraising is swelling, people are more openly talking about and covering the atrocities than ever before.

Don’t let the bigots get you down: remember the vocal demographic on this platform remains Little Britain.

Of course prepare yourself for a doubling-down on propaganda and bigotry now that Israel are losing their PR war.

Hanna1519 · 05/11/2023 19:52

Do you think this all started 7/10…how Ignorant do you sound right now? Why not start with what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians for the past 75 years??? The killings, having homes taken from them, oppression! I could go on and on and on. But no! You want talk about Hamas ffs.