Page 7 | To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

Fruitandclottedcream · 2023-10-11T08:40:18+00:00

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true. The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people". Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape. Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing. And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google) Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

Bigminnie1 · 11/10/2023 23:17

CoughingMajoress · 11/10/2023 13:24

If you aren't Jewish just shut up. It's not appropriate for people who aren't minorities to lecture to minorities about what is and isn't racism.

Society is generally very poorly educated and bad about recognising antisemitism because a lot of antisemitism is insidious and uses propaganda and stereotypes, in ways society doesn't always recognise as damaging. For example, one of the most dangerous stereotypes about Jews is that we're money grubbing and I've had a lot of people not understand why that's a bad thing, because "surely being good with money is a good thing?" But to understand why this trope exists and why it's so dangerous, requires understanding literally centuries of Jewish history. This stereotype IS very very dangerous and it's literally been used to justify multiple genocides. After the Treaty of Versailles, the German government weaponised this stereotype via massive propaganda campaigns to blame Germany's poverty on Jews hoarding the money, rather than acknowledge their own responsibility for the huge financial penalties forced upon Germany after WWI; that propaganda campaign (which would not have existed if not for centuries of Jews being cast as money grubbing, a stereotype that goes back to the era when Jews were forced into jobs as money lenders, then penalised by Medieval Christians for the jobs they'd forced Jews into) very directly led to the Holocaust.

And I bet anything someone will come along in a minute and accuse me of being yet another Jew who won't stop blathering about the Holocaust.

There's a huge amount of antisemitism wrapped up in antizionism, and a lot of people frankly don't give a fuck about Palestine and are just using it to have a pop at Jews.

Every Jewish person is expected to have an opinion on Israel, is held responsible for Israel, there's been a big wave of antisemitic attacks in the UK over the past few days, in a way that would never happen in any similar situation. The Chinese government literally have concentration camps were religious minorities are tortured and mass murdered (including being killed to order for the illegal organ trade) and it gets almost zero media attention and no Chinese person in the UK would be judged or asked their opinion about the actions of their government, yet Jews - many of whom have no connection to Israel - don't get the same grace.

That's why so much antizionism is antisemitic.

And yet you can't talk about Israel without understanding the history of how Israel was created, and how it's been used as a weapon by geopolitical forces (eg the way the US and USSR used the Middle East as a staging ground for proxy war during the Cold War, or how the USA is using Israel to prevent the Middle East from becoming one big Islamic fundamentalist superstate, or how the US is using Israel as a tactical intelligence centre in the Middle East and how this relates to oil wealth, or how the US religious right extremists support Israel because of Biblical Literalism which is not exactly Jewish-friendly) and how much Jews have been abused and exploited in that process. Israel was created because Europe wanted to get rid of all the Jews after WWII, and not give back all the land and wealth that was stolen from European Jews during the war. I mean Israel was nearly in Uganda for God's sake, no one cared about Jewish people, only getting rid of them.

And people don't understand just how minuscule a minority we are. Jews make up just 0.2% of the world's population. Muslims make up 24% of the world's population, and Christians make up 31%. That is an INSANE disparity.

Plus, Jews only have one single miniscule country to call our own where we can be safe (after centuries of non-stop persecution and multiple genocides). There are nearly FIFTY Muslim countries, and many of those countries are extremely wealthy and could protect and home the entire population of Palestine if they wanted to. The rest of the Arab world has either turned its back on Palestine, or is (in the case of Iran) actively bombing infrastructure in Gaza and funding terrorism that will actively harm Palestinians because Iran wants to kill all Jews, and doesn't care how many Palestinians are hurt or killed in the process.

I'm not defending the actions of the Israeli government, no one I know agrees with the violent oppression and apartheid of the current government. Everyone I know has serious concerns about Israel's swing to the far right and the growing power the ultra-religious have in Israeli politics. And this systemic violent oppression is not just of the Palestinians, but of minority groups within Israel, such as Israeli Bedouin. Systemic violent oppression of Israeli Bedouin by the Israeli government is just as bad, yet somehow the world media don't give the tiniest shit. Most people outside Israel have never even heard of this! And that raises the question, why is the plight of some oppressed people (like Palestinians) a massive worldwide issue, while the plight of other equally oppressed people (like Bedouin, or Muslim Uyghurs in China) goes totally ignored? What political agenda is being served by this cherry picking?

Thank you for saying so clearly what I feel.

HeatherMoores · 11/10/2023 23:19

But what actually is anti-Zionism? Zionism is a movement that believes in and creates a Jewish homeland - Israel.

Therefore anti-Zionism means opposition to the creation of the Jewish state of Israel. It is an opposition to the existence of the Jewish country that is Israel. That is antisemitic.

It is not simply ‘criticism of the behaviour of the Israeli government’.

Criticism of the Israeli government’s behaviour towards Palestine is entirely justified and acceptable.

Delegitimisation of the existence of Israel is not.

Defiantjazz · 11/10/2023 23:29

How were the human rights of the Jews who lived there already violated by Jewish immigration

She meant the one who weren’t Jewish. You know, the ones who were kicked out.

feralunderclass · 11/10/2023 23:32

@Evermean as it stands as a state with it's discriminatory policies and illegal human rights violations, preferably not. However it's here and it's home for the people who were born there. It isn't viable now to say we are shutting up shop. It isn't helpful to live in the past and anyone I know wants to move forward. It's not going to happen in a fair way though.

Defiantjazz · 11/10/2023 23:33

Criticism of the Israeli government’s behaviour towards Palestine is entirely justified and acceptable.

Delegitimisation of the existence of Israel is not

Thats fair. I would not say I was anti-Zionist if it means wanting the dissolution of Israel. A slightly less aggressive expansionist policy from their government would good tho.

EsmaCannonball · 11/10/2023 23:39

I think anti-Semitism is involved because Israel is held to a uniquely higher standard on human rights when compared to other countries. If Israel was waging a proxy war in Yemen we would never hear the end of it. If Israel was deploying mercenaries in Niger there were be protests over colonialism. If Israeli police shot women in the face or beat them into comas for not covering their hair there would be marches outside their embassy. I think that because Jewish people have lived at the mercy of others for so long, because they were treated so sadistically, there are a huge amount of people who see any sign of Jewish self-respect or success, let alone self-defence, as disobedience. They are expected to be nice and servile no matter what is done to them, and when they aren't it comes as a shock to many.

Defiantjazz · 11/10/2023 23:48

They are expected to be nice and servile no matter what is done to them, and when they aren't it comes as a shock to many.

I think it’s more the fact that Israel is protected by both America and Europe. Obviously there are reasons for this, to do with what has happened to the Jewish people in the past, but it does make them sort of untouchable. The Palestinians don’t really have a hope and this does some make people feel a bit uncomfortable.

And whether other country’s (Egypt etc) are still against them or have moved on /have other things to worry about I don’t really know. Either way I don’t think Israel is in danger of ceasing to exist though the constant threat of terrorism is obviously real.

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 23:50

Defiantjazz · 11/10/2023 21:26

Not to mention the chuptzpah really of the entire thread "people don't actually understand what antisemitism is". From a non Jew, and my "people" she presumably means the victims (Jews)

As I said earlier you do often get accused of antisemitism if you criticise Israel in any way and no you don’t have to be be going on about global conspiracy’s or brandying the word genocide about to goad. Just pointing out there’s violence/wrong doing from both sides seems to be enough.

A lot of people seem to think that means you’re secretly siding with Hammas and think Israel shouldn't exist.

Edited

There is no family probably in the UK who do not criticise Israel more than ours. I mean, we despise Likud. We despise them. I can't even look at Netenyahu without wanting to slap him. And we have been through decades of conversations with many, many many people all criticising them to the cows come home and no one has ever been accused of antisemitism.

If you are "often" getting accused of it, maybe it would be a good idea to ask about it? Maybe ask someone trusted and Jewish and get some feedback? My experience is that when people are being racist they generally don't know it - but think this over.

Which is more likely here:

That you are (inadvertently) saying something that Jews are perceiving as antisemitic that is making them upset and uncomfortable and they are telling you.

or

That they (they Jews) just don't understand what antisemitism is properly, and you know better

or

That they are lying, "playing the antisemitism card" in order to "silence your criticism of Israel".

I mean. I hope you can say only the first one is a feasible situation. I assure you that you don't know better than Jews what antisemitism is. And the idea that we are conspiring to silence Israel's critics is bizarre. Why would we do that? When someone criticicises Britain, do you want to "silence them"

Most of us criticise Israel robustly. I know few Jews who don't. That's why you just watched the biggest protests imaginable on the TV a few months ago. We don't care who criticises Israel. But our experience is that people do not know where the line is between criticising Israel and acting like they have problems with Jews.

FloorWipes · 11/10/2023 23:50

Fruitandclottedcream · 11/10/2023 23:03

I stated an opinion in my original thread, and asked if anyone agrees. That's kind of the entire point of AIBU. If you're referring to me making it about me in the comments... If someone addresses me and asks me a question about my opinion or knowledge on a subject, then I'm hardly going to reply from someone else's perspective am I?

Your opinions don't matter either in the scheme of things. So Why are you commenting? What's the point?

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It’s not only your comments. The discussion you are raising here has to be one of the most discussed points there is. You would know that, given how learned and educated you are on all these matters, according to you. So to bring it up in this manner, it looks like your purpose is to push your own interpretation and justify yourself, in order to define yourself in a certain way. That comes across as a somewhat ugly and unnecessary thing to do, right in the middle of what is happening. It was jumping out at me so I felt like saying it.

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 23:54

Fruitandclottedcream · 11/10/2023 21:26

That would also fall under anti Zionism. Because Israeli governments current policy have been created in line with their modern Zionist ideology

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I vehemently disagree.

When you are angry with Spains goverment, you criticise the specific policy and discuss that. You don't develop "anti Spainism".

When you are angry at China's government, you criticise the specific policy and discuss that. You don't develop "anti China ism"

You don't need new special words for the only Jewish state.

If you are angry at settlements in the west bank - criticise those.

If you are angry at delayed permits for medical care being arranged - criticise that

You will not find many Jews who don't vehemently agree with you.

But when you start using these words "anti zionism", you are telling us our country should not exist. Then can you understand this is treating us differently?

Evermean · 11/10/2023 23:54

feralunderclass · 11/10/2023 23:32

@Evermean as it stands as a state with it's discriminatory policies and illegal human rights violations, preferably not. However it's here and it's home for the people who were born there. It isn't viable now to say we are shutting up shop. It isn't helpful to live in the past and anyone I know wants to move forward. It's not going to happen in a fair way though.

Do you think every state with a government that commits human rights violations should preferably not exist?

Defiantjazz · 11/10/2023 23:58

That they are lying, "playing the antisemitism card" in order to "silence your criticism of Israel".

I must admit this is what I tend to suspect (rightly or wrongly)

If you are "often" getting accused of it, maybe it would be a good idea to ask about it? Maybe ask someone trusted and Jewish and get some feedback? My experience is that when people are being racist they generally don't know it - but think this over

Are you Jewish? If so let me ask you.
Have I said anything on this thread that is antisemitic?

nougatcougar · 12/10/2023 00:04

I hear you. Im very pissed off with hearing about how terrible it is what has happened recently (I agree it is) when no one has been talking about the years of oppression of Palestinian people. Oh NOW the violence needs to stop?

I say this with full respect to Jewish people and full acknowledgment of the horrors of the holocaust and all previous anti semitic campaigns, and yes, the need for displaced Jewish people to have a place called home. I want that for everyone though

Original poster

Fruitandclottedcream · 12/10/2023 00:08

FloorWipes · 11/10/2023 23:50

It’s not only your comments. The discussion you are raising here has to be one of the most discussed points there is. You would know that, given how learned and educated you are on all these matters, according to you. So to bring it up in this manner, it looks like your purpose is to push your own interpretation and justify yourself, in order to define yourself in a certain way. That comes across as a somewhat ugly and unnecessary thing to do, right in the middle of what is happening. It was jumping out at me so I felt like saying it.

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At the risk of being rude.
1.You're wrong. I don't have an agenda to push, I don't particularly want to present myself in a certain way. If I did, I would write a long LONG post with my thoughts and feelings on the entire topic of the Israel/Palestine conflict. A large chunk of my thoughts and feelings right now, are based around the fact that someone I know just lost 19 extended family members in 48 hours due to bombing on the Gaza strip. And how my dad has lost Israeli friends this week and how people everywhere are losing loved ones because of this.
And that whatever is going on in Gaza, is going on in Israeli territories, and vice versa, and how my heart breaks that thousands of civilians are killed and are just seen as "collateral damage" by terrorists on both sides. And how families can't even keep their babies and children safe from attack when these children have done nothing. They hold no opinions, they don't understand. And yet their lives are on the line, every single day.
I didn't post to "push a particular agenda" I just wanted to see if anybody shared my particular opinion, because I've been accused of being anti Semitic for saying I oppose modern Zionist ideology, even though I hold no hostility or prejudice towards Judaism or Jewish people. And actually, I've read everyone's views and learnt lots. But sure, I'm pushing an ugly agenda because I didn't really want to write a long post about how my heart breaks for everyone when it wasn't relevant.
2. "How learned and educated you are on all these matters, according to you" - I never said I'm "learned and educated on all these matters" . I said as somebody who strives to be anti racist, that includes learning about anti semitism and Jewish culture, heritage and history. And that I sought Jewish voices and resources to learn. I don't see an issue with that. At least I'm trying to educate myself before forming opinions. Which judging by your comments is something you're clearly not bothering to do.

It was jumping out at me so I felt like saying it

Theres this little thought bubble in your head, it's where you're supposed to push all the goady and unconstructive thoughts that jump out at you. I suggest you find yours and utilise it.

OP posts:

SaySomethingMan · 12/10/2023 00:11

I sincerely hope an answer is found at some point in the future, and an agreement, made. It must be so horrible having to call a place, where
you’re not fully free, home.

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 00:14

Fruitandclottedcream · 11/10/2023 21:21

I mean the quote is correct. It's not a fact that she's anti Semitic because she's anti Zionist. I haven't read the thread so she could be both. But she could also simply be against the Israeli's illegal occupation and oppression of Palestine.

From what I've seen You've basically spent the entire thread heavily implying that people who are anti Zionist are Anti Semitists for disagreeing with Israeli policy because the person writing the policy is Jewish. That's not what anti semitism is. And that is a fact.

Edited

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I mean the quote is correct. It's not a fact that she's anti Semitic because she's anti Zionist

I think she's antisemitic because on this thread she has:

implied Jewish people don't experience real racism because they are not generally brown
implied some kind of weird thing about Jews having power
put forward numerous statements which are completely inaccurate with a clear anti israel agenda
more or less outright said she denies israel's right to exist
applied completely different standards to israel as a nation
demonstrated as clear as day she has no idea what antisemitism is but that if Jews tell her, she isn't interested in listening

So, yeah, that rings every bell for me and based on what's she's written I wouldn't socialise with her or speak to her.

I don't think I have implied anything. And please don't gaslight me with this ⬇

From what I've seen You've basically spent the entire thread heavily implying that people who are anti Zionist are Anti Semitists for disagreeing with Israeli policy

The things listed in the bullets above are not "criticising israel's policy".

It is also not "criticising Israel's policy" to start a thread saying essentially "hey folks, don't you think Jews are wrong when they tell me I am antisemitic" and then making your first post one which states anti zionism doesn't mean what us Jews (or the dictionary) think it means - it means anti genocide, oppression and apartheid because you made that up and think we should just take on board this very important term relating to us as meaning all this terrible things.

If you were against those things, you would be anti HAMAS and anti ISLAMIC EXTEMISM and anti DHIMMI status for minorities. They are all those things!

dontbenastyhaveapasty · 12/10/2023 00:18

Evermean · 11/10/2023 17:09

Right, so toy want the entire country if Israel to just up and move to...somewhere.

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Well, that is exactly what the founders of the state of Israel imposed upon the Palestinians who were living in what is now Israel.

Are you agreeing that dispossessing those Palestinian families was a bad thing?

Its those same Palestinian families who now live in dreadful conditions in the West Bank and Gaza. Robbed of their land by people who at the time were described as terrorists by the British government (which ran Palestine at the time).

Defiantjazz · 12/10/2023 00:20

That they are lying, "playing the antisemitism card" in order to "silence your criticism of Israel".

I must admit this is what I tend to suspect (rightly or wrongly)

Seem to have lost edit function.
I should point out I’m talking about online discussions here. It’s probably harder to judge where someone is really coming from than in rl interactions. I am not saying it’s impossible that I’m wrong that’s just how it seems sometimes.

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 00:27

@Fruitandclottedcream

However - Lots of comments on here imply or explicitly state, that because someone is non Jewish they cannot define what Anti Semitism is, because they simply can't understand it or know what it is if they're not Jewish themselves

Lots of people who are not Jewish have a deep and empathetic understanding of exactly what antisemitism is. Some absolutely do not. The point is that you don't get to define it for yourself - the world's leading scholars and experts have already done that. All you have to do is follow it and listen if Jewish people are trying to tell you.

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 00:38

Defiantjazz · 11/10/2023 23:58

That they are lying, "playing the antisemitism card" in order to "silence your criticism of Israel".

I must admit this is what I tend to suspect (rightly or wrongly)

If you are "often" getting accused of it, maybe it would be a good idea to ask about it? Maybe ask someone trusted and Jewish and get some feedback? My experience is that when people are being racist they generally don't know it - but think this over

Are you Jewish? If so let me ask you.
Have I said anything on this thread that is antisemitic?

I must admit this is what I tend to suspect (rightly or wrongly)

Why?

Why would a Jewish person saying to you that they find something antisemitic automatically make you suspect they are trying to "silence criticism of israel"?

Would you think that if any other person said they felt you were being prejudiced?

To us, even thinking this implies you feel Jews are sneaky, surreptitious, scheming, deceptive, in a plot to protect Israel...... that makes me really uncomfortable to be honest!

I think these memes went around saying "we use antisemitism to silence criticism of Israel" and now people just use this to justify being antisemitic and trying to reverse blame for it onto the victim which makes me sad

Are you Jewish?

Yes

If so let me ask you
Have I said anything on this thread that is antisemitic?

No

DevonDelight · 12/10/2023 00:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I think its fair to say that your user name raises questions about your integrity.

quiteoldad · 12/10/2023 00:56

Having followed other, very shouty threads in which there was an awful lot of ignorance, noise and bigotry, I've gotta say that this has been a very reasoned thread.

I think the topic of what constitutes antisemitism is still a very raw subject for a lot of people. There are many, including myself who feel stronlgy that it was used as a weapon against Corbyn and so they rightly want to examine closely any accusation of antisemitism to discover its veracity. I'm not claiming that Labour was devoid of antisemitism, but that it was "found" in places where it never really existed. Simply by stating that I appreciate that I am now laying myself open to being accused of antisemitism.

Original poster

Fruitandclottedcream · 12/10/2023 01:07

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 23:54

I vehemently disagree.

When you are angry with Spains goverment, you criticise the specific policy and discuss that. You don't develop "anti Spainism".

When you are angry at China's government, you criticise the specific policy and discuss that. You don't develop "anti China ism"

You don't need new special words for the only Jewish state.

If you are angry at settlements in the west bank - criticise those.

If you are angry at delayed permits for medical care being arranged - criticise that

You will not find many Jews who don't vehemently agree with you.

But when you start using these words "anti zionism", you are telling us our country should not exist. Then can you understand this is treating us differently?

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Reading your comment I think the issue is there are multiple different "branches" of Zionism that are all recognised as valid. Jewish people are talking about one and Non Jewish people are talking about another.

From what I am reading in this thread Jewish people including yourself (I'm assuming you're Jewish based on your responses please correct me if I'm wrong), define Zionism by it's original pre 1948 definition of religious Zionism which is the ultimately Jewish Diasporas right to self determination and their right to return to Israel as it is their ancestral homeland.

Non Jewish people including myself tend to define Zionism by the Israeli governments current modern Zionist ideology, which has lead to the ongoing oppression and genocide of Palestinians.

I have not and will not ever say your country should not exist. Because I don't believe that. As I stated in a previous comment I don't hold any issue with Jewish people wanting to return to an ancestral homeland where they can be safe. If I had been persecuted for centuries I would want a country to call my own. My issue is that under modern Zionist ideology, this has been done at the cost of Palestinians, and it didn't need to be.

OP posts:

Original poster

Fruitandclottedcream · 12/10/2023 01:27

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 00:14

I mean the quote is correct. It's not a fact that she's anti Semitic because she's anti Zionist

I think she's antisemitic because on this thread she has:

implied Jewish people don't experience real racism because they are not generally brown
implied some kind of weird thing about Jews having power
put forward numerous statements which are completely inaccurate with a clear anti israel agenda
more or less outright said she denies israel's right to exist
applied completely different standards to israel as a nation
demonstrated as clear as day she has no idea what antisemitism is but that if Jews tell her, she isn't interested in listening

So, yeah, that rings every bell for me and based on what's she's written I wouldn't socialise with her or speak to her.

I don't think I have implied anything. And please don't gaslight me with this ⬇

From what I've seen You've basically spent the entire thread heavily implying that people who are anti Zionist are Anti Semitists for disagreeing with Israeli policy

The things listed in the bullets above are not "criticising israel's policy".

It is also not "criticising Israel's policy" to start a thread saying essentially "hey folks, don't you think Jews are wrong when they tell me I am antisemitic" and then making your first post one which states anti zionism doesn't mean what us Jews (or the dictionary) think it means - it means anti genocide, oppression and apartheid because you made that up and think we should just take on board this very important term relating to us as meaning all this terrible things.

If you were against those things, you would be anti HAMAS and anti ISLAMIC EXTEMISM and anti DHIMMI status for minorities. They are all those things!

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I missed her posts, I apologise. I've just found them and yes. She is Anti-Semitic. Again I'm sorry I missed that. And I obviously disagree with her points.

OP posts:

etmoietmoietmoi · 12/10/2023 01:35

quiteoldad · 12/10/2023 00:56

Having followed other, very shouty threads in which there was an awful lot of ignorance, noise and bigotry, I've gotta say that this has been a very reasoned thread.

I think the topic of what constitutes antisemitism is still a very raw subject for a lot of people. There are many, including myself who feel stronlgy that it was used as a weapon against Corbyn and so they rightly want to examine closely any accusation of antisemitism to discover its veracity. I'm not claiming that Labour was devoid of antisemitism, but that it was "found" in places where it never really existed. Simply by stating that I appreciate that I am now laying myself open to being accused of antisemitism.

You don't come across as antisemitic to me at all, but I would say you have a blind spot. The very online Corbyn diehards spewed it out at every opportunity. It was soul destroying to watch decent Jewish people repeatedly shouted down with horrific goading and insults. Even the most innocuous tweets from Jewish people, that had literally nothing to do with antisemitism or Israel, were met with replies of Free Palestine, demands to denounce Israel or pictures of injured or dead Gazans. Very blatant expressions of antisemitism were repeatedly downplayed (unless of course it came from the right, and in which case you were suddenly happy to call it out. Quelle surprise non).

Sorry if it feels raw for you, but I can assure you it feels even rawer for many Jews that were on the receiving end of repeated bigotry. It felt devastating.