To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

Reading your comment I think the issue is there are multiple different "branches" of Zionism that are all recognised as valid. Jewish people are talking about one and Non Jewish people are talking about another

I think non Jewish people have hijacked the word and decided it means all sorts of ugly things. I think it's a very easy way to say things you couldn't say if you use the word "Jew".

Zionism refers to the movement to create a Jewish state in the Middle East, roughly corresponding to the historical land of Israel, and thus support for the modern state of Israel. Anti-Zionism opposes that.

So maybe back in 1912 being an "anti zionist" meant that you were someone who believed that was a bad idea. But as Israel has already existed already for 75 years and is home to 9 million people (including about 2 million Muslims) - so what down sit mean now when people say it?

What it now means is obviously that they think an established, existing country should no longer exist. Be destroyed. There really isn't any other interpretation surely?

Non Jewish people including myself tend to define Zionism by the Israeli governments current modern Zionist ideology, which has lead to the ongoing oppression and genocide of Palestinians

The definition I gave above is what it means, so maybe a better title for the thread should be "can I take words that hold deep meanings for Jews and the meaning of 3000 years of their experience and give those words new, and very unpleasant, definitions that associate their country with concepts of genocide and oppression"? To which the answer is hopefully "no" - particularly given that no people on earth have been greater victims of genocide and oppression than we have.

This is an important Jewish word. To us, what you're saying would be comparable to "non Muslims" deciding that the word "Mosque" now means "terrorist", based on "modern extremist Islamic ideology". Can you picture how offensive that would be? This is how offensive this feels for us.

There really isn't a "modern zionist ideology". There is just a set of policies by one government. The same as every other government. No need for special words to create a term which identifies Israel as uniquely evil and possessing of some unusual ideology.

You need to really deconstruct these words you are associating with Israel specifically over any other country. You use these two words "genocide and oppression". Do you really believe only Israel or "zionists" are deserving of these words? Why?

To break down these words, the UN has a definition of "Genocide" which is as follows:

"Any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such":

• Killing members of the group
• Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
• Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
• Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
• Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

I would say one could argue Israel does the first three? But also, so does Hamas. So have almost every single Arab nation to Jews. So do many, many other countries actually.

When you read more on the expert definition it states:

"Genocide is a crime on a different scale to all other crimes against humanity and implies an intention to completely exterminate the chosen group. Genocide is therefore both the gravest and greatest of the crimes against humanity."

So I am going to ask you to answer in good faith: do you reasonably believe Israel has tried to "exterminate" Palestinians? They have the military capacity to do this overnight - and yet I think since Hamas took leadership in 2006 that the data says there have been under 3000 civilian deaths in total. 3000 over 18 years in an ongoing conflict? Genocide? Honestly?

Also, Hamas have stated - both in their original covenant and in many, many, many public statements that their intent is to "completely exterminate" Jews. So it is they actually who have stated intent of genocide - and it seems only their capacity / lack of weaponry power has prevented them from achieving it.

So my question really is why would you associate Israel with genocide, when it is their opponent who has spent almost forty years declaring their actual intent is genocide? Why would you associate Israel with "genocide" when UN experts say in the last century only two genocides have occurred (Holocaust and Rwanda) and for some reason you're now applying that definition to a conflict with very minimal loss of life?

It's something to think about.

Similarly, oppression. I don't object to the use of the word (whilst genocide felt like serious hyperbole). They do oppress Palestinians. But my question is why do you feel this is unique to them? Hamas oppress their own citizens with worse human rights abuses by a considerable measure. Jews are again, oppressed similarly by almost every Arab state. Historically, Jews lived for 600 years as Dhimmi to Muslims, which is my definition - "oppression" and "Apartheid" in it's worst forms.

Certainly elsewhere in the world FAR worse oppression happens. Try being gay in Iran for example. So I am just a bit confused why this very derogatory set of terms are applied to Israel and "Zionism" in this very targeted way? It feels odd to me, so I am just asking you to think about it and consider why the Jewish state is targeted in this way. Particularly given that we are people who have - for 3000 years - been similarly targeted for criticism in a unique and disproportionate way.

I have not and will not ever say your country should not exist. Because I don't believe that

Thank you - but as I said, when you say you are anti zionist - this is what you are saying :) Factually speaking those are the meaning of the words.

Etmoietmoietmoi wrote
"The very online Corbyn diehards spewed it out at every opportunity. It was soul destroying to watch decent Jewish people repeatedly shouted down with horrific goading and insults. Even the most innocuous tweets from Jewish people, that had literally nothing to do with antisemitism or Israel, were met with replies of Free Palestine, demands to denounce Israel or pictures of injured or dead Gazans. Very blatant expressions of antisemitism were repeatedly downplayed (unless of course it came from the right, and in which case you were suddenly happy to call it out. Quelle surprise non)."

I'm sorry you had to endure that, I was fortunate enough not to encounter such bile or vitriol. Were these at meetings and rallys? If so, then it's very likely these were genuine bigots.
If it were online, well I'd be a little more suspicious. As one who has done online dating, I'm fully aware that not everybody is who they might appear to be.

@quiteoldad Thank you. Yes, I'd say the majority of it was online, but I know there were serious issues at some CLP meetings with Jewish members being shouted at to denounce Israel or told to leave if they wouldn't.

I think for a of British Jews what really hurt the most was that so many of us are lefties!

@quiteoldad I also agree this has been a more respectful thread compared to the others.

I would agree with this. @quiteoldad I voted for Jeremy Corbyn. Campaigned for him actually. And initially I felt like the whole thing was a storm in a teacup.

It wasn't though.

I am a huge socialist, but I would not vote for a socialist party again unless the problem with antisemitism is dealt with. My son, who was an avid member of his university socialist club left for the same reasons.

I wouldn't feel safe to go and campaign and knock on doors again with socialists. Which sounds terrible, because my whole life they were "my tribe" - but this entire "down with the zionists and free palestine" feels like it became a cult that had very little to do with helping anyone Palestinian and a lot more to do with creating a figure of ultimate evil and hate in the "zionist".

To me, this personally started to feel like I was experiencing what my grandparents would have dealt with in the 1930s. It might sound OTT to you, but that was how it felt. The narrative, the use of language, targeted specifically towards Zionists (AKA, almost every Jew) reminded me of those posters depicting the Jude and the sneaky, deceptive, evil puppet master.

It was uncomfortable beyond words.

As @etmoietmoietmoi is saying, if you were ever on the receiving end of a very die-Hard Corbyn supporter shouting you down with very blatant expressions of antisemitism and then denying they were doing it and accusing you of being in on the "zionist plot" then I assure you it was bloody horrible. I had to completely disengage from it.

@LemonyTicket 100%.

Same. I don't hate Jewish people, I don't particularly hate anyone (I dislike some people, but not for ideological reasons). I imagine for most of the UK Jewish people are not even on their radar, I had never met a Jewish person until I lived down south. Yet any criticism of Israel is met with the same thought terminating slogans.

I don't think there's any point talking about anything online anymore. It's sad.

If any other minority said "it's not for you to dictate to actual minorities what is and isn't bigotry against my minority group" it wouldn't generate this much hatred.

People literally posting that they HATE Jewish posters just for saying, don't dictate to Jews what is and isn't antisemitic.

If a woman was to post "Men stop telling women what is and isn't misogynistic" would you be screaming about how much you hate her, and how it's so typical of all women to shut down debate by telling poor mens that as men they can't possibly know what misogyny is, and that women should be the voices being listened to?

If a lesbian poster was to start a thread in Feminist Chat about homophobia, would you find it acceptable for lots of straight posters to lecture her that she's wrong and that they're the authority on what is and isn't homophobic? Of course not.

I didn't scream "shut up", I asked posters who are not members of a specific minority group to let actual minorities speak, because only minorities are qualified to gauge what is and isn't bigotry towards themselves.

Because the fact is, antisemitism is very complex and coded, and requires a lot of historical education to be able to recognise and understand. Most non-Jews genuinely don't understand why the trope of Jews being good with money is considered very harmful and dangerous, while the trope of Jews being argumentative is considered far less so. (There's a very specific cultural reason why that trope exists and why it's perceived as being less harmful, which I'd be happy to delineate if you could stop screaming about how much you "DETEST" Jews who say non-Jews aren't qualified to recognise antisemitism for two minutes.)

And I gave a substantial amount of time to writing a very informative post containing a large amount of detail that most people outside the ME have never even heard of, much less consider themselves well-educated about. Clearly most posters here are not experts on Middle Eastern geopolitical history, so why do you refuse to listen to thoughtful and lengthy factual posts from people who are?

Posters actively turn down actual minorities taking the time to help them to educate themselves, by just screaming "I HATE PEOPLE LIKE YOU" - do you really genuinely think that saying you "detest" people is the way to open and fair discourse?

Remember, I did not say I hated anyone. I merely suggested that non-minorities shouldn't lecture minorities as to their own minority group. If your response to a minority being asked to be respected as the authority on their own minority group is to display this level of rage and hatred, you might want to consider why.

Would you react by saying "I detest you" if Mumsnetter posted "men shut up lecturing women what is and isn't misogyny"?

@LemonyTicket I just wanted to jump onto a thread on this that hasn’t filled up yet and thank you for your brilliant (and endlessly patient, despite lots of provocation from a selection of absolute fannies) explanations of the formation of today’s Israel and Palestine.

To the other poster who’s name I can’t remember (French ethnic Jew lady) I’m in a similar position to you in that I’m an atheist, but ethnically Jewish woman living in a small Scottish town (from a big city originally) with zero Jewish population. I’ve also been quizzing my kids today on who knows they’re Jewish . I actually wear a Magen David, as it was my mums, and we have a mezuzah on our door; and I’ve been really swaying about whether I should be removing them both at the moment. I’ve never felt this before in Scotland ever ever. Never unsafe. Now I’m unsure and just so uneasy. And like you we wouldn’t manage in Israel…my kids and I speak zero Hebrew and are just so culturally Scottish. It’s a really unsettling time for us all isn’t it; solidarity to all of us who feel removed from observant judiasm but are still Jewish enough for the antisemites .

Also, I am ONE person. And my dad is white English and Christian. My dad's family have lived in England for 900 years ffs.

I'm also a woman, a feminist, a lesbian, am GC, and am a very longterm Mumsnetter who has known and chatted and been friends with some of you for many years.

The point is that I am a person and a rounded human being and an individual, just like anyone else here.

Yet you're not capable of seeing me as anything other than "a Jew".

And making blanket statements, just because one single Mumsnetter who happens to be Jewish said something in a tone that was very slightly more brusque or less politely worded than you feel "Jews" should be to you.

For fuck's sake, this is Mumsnet. And this is AIBU. If you can't handle someone not being soft and gentle and nicey nice, get the fuck of AIBU. This thread is practically warm and cuddly compared to the average parking or cycling AIBU..

Yet it's only because a regular Mumsnetter happens to be Jewish that you take a lack of politeness as being indicative of how awful Jews are, what with our infamous "rudeness" and all.

Some people just don't see Jewish people as human beings.

Exactly, and thank you for your posts, Lemony.

Lemony you have written incredible things in this thread. I hope people learn from them.

Great, very interesting post- I've learnt a lot. Thank you

To us, even thinking this implies you feel Jews are sneaky, surreptitious, scheming, deceptive, in a plot to protect Israel...... that makes me really uncomfortable to be honest!

And being accused of being racist is meant to make me feel just fab is it?

I am not trying to goad you - I am trying to show you that you come across as extremely lacking in humility through all this, at best.

Antizionism is an accepted way to voice antisemitism.

Even the way people on threads are so furious if you say Palestine instead of Hamas, because 'they don't represent the Palestinian people,' yet are happy to characterise and speak about Jews/Israelis as a whole.

The thread openly debating where to send all the Jews, for God's sake. Because we don't want them in the Middle East - so maybe they should be sent to a remote settlement in Russia?

And the meaning of Zionism is the belief in the right to a Jewish state. If I said 'I have nothing against Chinese people, but I think China should be abolished' - knowing this would guarantee the genocide of Chinese people - I think that would make me pretty clearly racist against Chinese people.

I am astonished this thread is allowed to stand, the thread title alone is so insensitive and provocative, especially at this present time. The OP confidently demonstrating either their faux naivety, their sheer ignorance or worse. If you really want to educate yourself OP, go and visit a Holocaust museum, for example https://www.holocaust.org.uk/

Here is a more extensive list of Holocaust museums
https://www.un.org/en/holocaustrememberance/additionalresources/museums

There is a lot of antisemitism around, how could it not? It's been around for Millenia and hatred and suspicion of Jews is deeply and intrinsically weaved into the fibre of Europeans history and society and Europeans have never actually confronted their treatment of Jewish communities. Sadly many , especially young people have no idea about history and how Europeans have treated their fellow Jewish citizens over centuries. The dangerous, humiliating and damaging stereotypes, the envy, the disgust. They just carry on with the heritage of deep seated, collective anti semitism. It's a collective blind spot.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/antisemitism-in-history-from-the-early-church-to-1400
For centuries the Church taught that Jews were responsible for Jesus' death, not recognising, as most historians do today, that Jesus was executed by the Roman government because officials viewed him as a political threat to their rule. As outsiders, Jews were objects of violent stereotyping and subject to violence against their persons and property.

I also find it interesting and hypocritical how people who consider themselves left/liberal and e.g. support a multi cultural society, are against homegrown fascism, pro LGB or LGBTQ+ do not extend their inclusivity to the Jewish community, even though across history and geographic regions the Jews are and have been the most persecuted minority.

The reason for this is anti-Semitism. As someone else has said, even though Jews are discriminated against and experience violence based on their religion/ethnicity on a regular basis by people from across the political spectrum those who are proudly inclusive of other minorities do not extend this attitude to Jewish people. This is due to unconscious bias and the heritage of anti-semitism, much of it based on envy and mistrust.

Discussing and critiquing Israel is not anti semitic as such. But being ignorant of the history of the Jewish people, the progroms, the everyday racism and anti semitism throughout history and reinforcing the many damaging stereotypes makes it very likely that you will end up saying something anti semitic. Also remember, more likely than not people have collective and unconscious anti semitic views they carry around, it's obvious just look at the many MN posts in recent days.

You are technically right, but there is overlap.

If people know nothing of the Middle East, their ‘anti Zionism’ is thinly disguised antisemitism. Equally, those who don’t think Israel has the right to exist are antisemitic.

However, those with deep knowledge, who dislike the settlements and the trend towards apartheid of the current Israeli government (of whom there are many in Israel) are not antisemitic.

There are a lot of antisemites, though, who don’t actually think that they are.

That's why I don't and will never accept that only the minority group in question, or some allegedly representative group of them, is allowed to decide what is or is not bigotry against them.

I'm a free speech absolutist, I want to hear all points of view other than incitement to crime and defamation, which were the traditional limits to free speech. I want that because I want to especially understand people that I vehemently disagree with and why they believe what they do, and because I want to learn and understand things and I know many other people do too. You can't learn and you can't resolve problems if you censor everything deemed 'ist'. Until very recently that would have been the standard liberal position and no one would have batted an eyelid at the reasoning.

To that end I posted at one point that I didn't want antisemitism to be censored by Mumsnet. I was told that this view was 'encouraging hate speech' and that therefore my post should also be deleted. Presumably they would also want me kicked off the site entirely. I have no idea if the person who did that was Jewish or not, and I absolutely don't care. They're wrong and they should not have the power to have me censored.

I've also explained several times that the response to jihadist attacks in Europe has always included the same minimizing, justifying and whataboutery you see in response to the Hamas attack. I've explained why I believe that is. People have literally told me that never happened, presumably I've been imagining all the debates I've personally participated in for going on a decade now. That's absolutely, demonstrably false and I won't accept it from anyone. I could start shrieking about my lived experience as the only valid source of knowledge, but I won't.

As to the thread about whether the Zionists picked the right country or not, that was my thread. You, and several other people, completely and utterly misread, misunderstood and misinterpreted it. It was largely a reading comprehension/emotionally triggered people being unable to read problem. You'd know that if you do a search for my user name and read my posting history on this subject. So, again, no you don't get to decide for me what is or isn't antisemitic or antizionist just because you're Jewish and I'm not.

I also, by the way, do not simply bow to the judgment of any non-white person, or anyone claiming to speak on their behalf, as to what's racist or not, any Muslim etc as to what's islamophobic or not, any transperson as to what's transphobic or not, any disabled person as to what is or isn't ableism, any fat person as to what is or isn't fatphobic and so on (and actually, in reality, neither do most people). Because I oppose identity politics of all kinds, it's a recipe for insanity. And, to be consistent, I have no problem at all with a man telling me something that I view as sexism is not sexist, or a non-Irish person telling me that what I view as anti-Irish bigotry is not so. That's life.

So you don't believe mumsnet should ever delete any posts ever? There might be other forums out there that don't have rules, you can try them.

Jewish people understand very well the racism against them. Actually.

Thank you for your post. It's a very complex piece of history and for the last few days, I've been trying to understand better what the Brits did with regards to dividing that land after WWII. Thank you for your insight

@Evermean I answered that in my post. Read it again.

To all the gender critical feminists out there, because I know you can understand this - would you sit back and accept that, say, only Stonewall gets to define what transphobia is and that Mumsnet should thereafter apply that definition in its censorship policies? Better still, how about they get their definition of transphobia passed into law as 'hate speech', and now forums can be legally compelled to impose it. Are we still ok with this logic?

To anyone suggesting that Hamas', or any other jihadist group's, behaviour is anything to do with Islam, are you ok with only Muslims - let's say some random group of them, let's say some allegedly representative body - getting to define what is or is not islamophobia and should therefore be censored?

Transpeople understand very well the transphobia against them. Actually.

So yes? If you don't think a forum should have any rules then why not go somewhere that more fits that view? MN have talk guidelines, they delete posts that break them, that's just how it works.