To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

You have spent the whole thread throwing out energy of a child sitting on it's hands trying not to take a biscuit it really want to take

No I haven’t

On the 'is this racist?' vein - I was reading something recently about children in nursery. They were asked to pick colouring pens and one child said black was the worst colour (it didn't state but I assume this child was white). A child present was mixed race and told their (Black) mother, who felt this was a racist incident. The nursery investigated, felt it wasn't racially motivated but the mother wasn't happy. How do we prove that this was racism? Do we brand this child (and no doubt it's parents) racist because the mother felt it was?

This is a narrative you have formed. What is more realistic is the reality that both groups of people lived on this land, one a minority who had been there longer, and the other a majority who had - for hundreds of years - held the minority in dhimmitude in an effective apartheid scenario

When that "empire" was over, both those groups wanted to rule the land. A careful and detailed investigation into what was right and fair was done, and it was decided two states would be created.

The Arab League didn't war against Israel because it wanted Arab Palestinians to have their homes - actually it happily watches as they have done and does nothing. They went to war against Israel so the Jewish Dhimmi did not dare to have power over territory they felt - after hundreds of years of Ottoman dominance over JEWISH land - they they owned the entire place.

That is all.

I don't usually comment on these sorts of threads, but there seem to be several people here who do actually want to learn, so I'm commenting here.

Every time something happens in Israel, antisemitic incidents increase in many parts of the world, including the UK. This week there's been a huge increase in reported incidents. All these people saying that being anti-Israel isn't the same thing as antisemitism, yet it's clearly all interlinked because otherwise we wouldn't get this increase in hate crimes that correlate with the situation in the Middle East.

Not only do a lot of people not know the difference between anti-Zionism and antisemitism, there are actually a shocking number of people out there who don't even know the difference between Israeli citizens, and Jewish people around the world of various nationalities. I've met several people who thought that all Jewish people were Israeli. Yes, really. I'm a British citizen. As someone mentioned much earlier in the thread, there is antisemitism in the way people demand that all Jewish people around the world must explain their views on Israel, or apologise every time something happens etc. I've also met people who said that Israel is the very reason for antisemitism and no wonder people hate Jews after all that's happened - all while conveniently ignoring the fact that antisemitism has existed for thousands of years, and they never seem to find an explanation for that.

In terms of criticising Israel and its government, a lot of antisemitism comes from context and oh-so-convenient timing. So, while "Free Palestine" might not sound antisemitic in isolation, when it's deliberately painted on a bridge in the middle of Golders Green (this actually happened a few days ago), then yes it's antisemitic because it's done deliberately to antagonise.

I've been in a situation where a random bloke has walked up to me in a public place, out of nowhere, and started saying how awful it was that children were dying in Gaza. I hadn't even said anything, I was just sitting there waiting for a friend, and yet this guy had walked up to an obviously Jewish person and started talking about Gaza. This is absolutely antisemitism. I wasn't even doing anything at the time.

I've been in a situation where I walked into a room where two non-Jewish people were reading the papers, and as soon as I walked in, the woman immediately started saying to her husband how shocked she was by everything happening in Palestine that week, again apropos of nothing. They weren't even talking, but as soon as a Jewish person walked into the room, they conveniently started having a conversation about Israel. This is really not okay.

And online, a frequent occurence is that there'll be a thread about antisemitism in the UK, or an incident that happened etc, and a random person will come along and comment with "Freedom for Palestine!" when we weren't even talking about the Middle East. Again, this is antisemitic because it wasn't even the topic of conversation and you're doing the online equivalent of the things I've mentioned above.

This stuff happens all. the. time. And you know what's really sad is that I've experienced way more of this from left wing people compared to right wing. I've met a few right wing extremists and they've actually told me straight out that they don't like Jews, and much as that bothers me, at least they're more honest about it. Left wing people are far more dishonest, dressing up their antisemitism with academic rhetoric, or Palestine solidarity etc, when there's clearly antisemitism behind it because it's phrased in the most antagonistic way. As has been mentioned several times throughout this thread, a lot of antisemitic people jump on board the Free Palestine movement because it gives them an excuse to say antisemitic stuff.

Oh, and I don't usually go around correcting people's spelling online, but I've lost count of the number of people who claim to be experts in these things yet can't even spell Israel. Is-ra-el. A before E. At least get the basics right.

Yes, but bear in mind that Jews living under Dhimmi in Muslim lands were not having to do so because they were Jewish, it was because they were not Muslims. They were not being singled out. Dhimmi applied to the Christians, Hindus sikhs Zoroastrians etc equally. Whilst certainly not being an ideal state of affairs for Jews in these land it was certainly preferable, during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries, to being in Europe, especially Eastern Europe. Zionism sprung up late 19C from the oppression of Eastern European Jews. It was a European led movement. It suited the British because it would stop the waves of poor Jews who were coming over from Poland and Russia in the late 19C, early 20C. They were filling up the East End of London and parts of Manchester, Leeds and other centres. If they could have somewhere else to go, that would be great. And so Balfour, just before WW1, in which the declaration made no mention at all of Palestinians, despite the fact that they made up over 90% of the people living on the land under discussion. Then WW1, then all the shit with Sykes, Pico and the promises made to the Arabs and the Jews, not all of which could be kept.

Meanwhile, over in the middle east, Jews lived under Dhimmi were not really thinking about Zionism. They had integrated in the Arab countries and although not having equal status, their lives were not so miserable that they felt the need to move out, like those of Europe did. Relatively few Arab Jews came to the UK. Only when the troubles started in what was Palestine in the 1930 did things get nastier for Jews in Arab lands and they felt the need to leave.
That is my understanding, please feel free to correct.

The overriding theme of things is that Jews were forced, due to prejudice, into certain jobs. Then later, they were blamed for it.

There is so much rhetoric about Jews having empires, being rich, being at the top of business and so on, but they weren't allowed to work at lawfirms, so the made their own. They weren't allowed to work at hospitals so they built their own. They weren't allowed to work in theatres and no one would put on shows in their language so they built a movie industry too. In the 20s and 30s when they were arriving in American they had every door slammed in their face so they had to build their own power structures as they were shut out of existing ones.

So this is why they are often disproportionately present in some professions - they had to build their own empire because no one wanted them in theirs!

Yes, but bear in mind that Jews living under Dhimmi in Muslim lands were not having to do so because they were Jewish, it was because they were not Muslims. They were not being singled out*

Why does this make a difference?

I can't even respond to the rest of your post. It just sounds like one long "it wasn't that bad"

What is the point of it?

What point are you actually trying to make?

That we should have just lived with it?

I really am not sure at all what point you are trying to make but for three days now everything you post seems to have the aim of undermining Jews or Israel and minimising anything they suffered

because you had literally just said your immediate response to a Jew saying something was antisemitic was to assume they were lying to stop israel being criticised!

@LemonyTicket, why have you picked up on the two posts I wrote that was a matter of opinion which you challenged (although repeating the sam thing in regards to oppression) which is fin but won't lead to anything productive yet ignored the one message when I asked questions to help better understand what is happening, which frankly is much more interesting.

I'll ask again. Can you, or of course anyone else, explain better the CURRENT situation in the West Bank. Precisely, How different or not is it for Jews and Palestinians living in area A, B or C? For example, do both Jews and Palestinians work as teachers in all 3 areas, and are the schools opened to both children? How about hospitals?

We know more or less what life is like in Gazza. I am interested in understanding what it's like in the West Bank.

This was the exchange between us:

YOU: when Jews tell me I am being antisemitic I generally think they are just saying so to stifle criticism of Israel

ME: Why? Isn't that implying Jews are dishonest, sneaky, up to something?

YOU: Well it's not very nice being called a racist either

So basically a Jew can't say to you that you are being antisemitic because a) you don't like being called a racist and b) they are probably lying anyway because Jews do that and you think you are the hard done by one in this conversation?

Oh my goodness

I've lived 46 years without anyone accusing me of being antisemitic, so like I said if it's regularly happening to you maybe you should do some thinking.

I don't think you have said anything antisemitic on this thread, but if I am honest, throughout it - you and one other person have seemed very much like they were needling.

My impression is that you are on this thread to prove something - ie: that Jews need to stop complaining about antisemitism or something along those lines

This entire post is nonsense. You have come to a thread which is about ANTISEMITISM. And used it to bash Israel for about 14 pages now.

This isn't about how bad Israel is.

It is about where the line of criticising Israel ends and becomes antisemitic.

When you drone on for 14 pages about how oppressive Israel is and completely ignore the fact that Palestine has one of the worst human rights records on the globe, where Amnesty describes eye watering abuses of it's own people, who are not being given even the right to VOTE then you are evidently "holding Israel to standards to which you do not hold any other nation" (which is the definition of antisemitism.

If oppression bothers you: oppression by BOTH needs to bother you

If killing bothers you: killing by BOTH needs to bother you.

If someone pointing out this prejudice to you is "whataboutery" in your eyes, then that's troubling. If you really wanted to consider antisemitism, which is implied by your presence on this thread - then a more beneficial response might be "hmm, I guess I do hold one to a higher standard than the other"

Instead you imply I am biased for pointing out your bias.

because you had literally just said your immediate response to a Jew saying something was antisemitic was to assume they were lying to stop israel being criticised!

I never meant to imply anyone was lying. It’s just it’s a bit difficult to believe that anyone would really think I want a nation totalled and a people rounded up and killed. So it seems like rhetoric to me.

I mean if you actually read my posts I am not calling for the destruction of Israel, or victory for Hammas, or persecution of the Jews, or claiming that Israel are attempting genocide or that Israel shouldn’t defend itself or that Hammas aren’t terrorists.

Ive said that the partition was a mistake, the Arab Palestinians who lived there at the time did have a claim to the land (irrespective of whether Palestine was a “real” country) because, well, they lived there, the land grabs are wrong and Ariel Sharon was not broken hearted when the
Second Intifada started.

And you responded by saying I’m a child sitting on her hands trying not to be racist. This disprove that if you criticise Isreal you get accused of antisemitism in what way?

Very easily.

Here is the Jerusalem Declaration:
https://jerusalemdeclaration.org/

Here is the IHRA definition:
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

They are very short, one page each, but include things like

"Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation"

Such as .....Palestine! Which is why I spend time pointing out the double standards people are applying - which is text book antisemitism.

If it isn't on those two pages, it is not antisemitism.

Also, children choosing coloured pencils isn't mandated on the definition of afrophobia. But good job trying to imply our objections were ridiculous :)

@ Lemony
Yes, but bear in mind that Jews living under Dhimmi in Muslim lands were not having to do so because they were Jewish, it was because they were not Muslims. They were not being singled out*

Why does this make a difference?

A lot of the narrative on here has suggested that Jews were being
singled out under Dhimmi because they were Jews. Patently untrue in this
instance.

I can't even respond to the rest of your post. It just sounds like one long
"it wasn't that bad"

Indeed, as I said in my post, persecution in the Arab lands was not as bad as it was in Eastern Europe.

What is the point of it?
Comparison, context, that there was more accord between Jew and
Muslim the middle east than there was between Jew and Christian and many other points...which if you are unable to see on first read, then maybe read again.

What point are you actually trying to make?

That we should have just lived with it?
Where did I ever say that? That is just nonsense to even suggest I implied that.

I really am not sure at all what point you are trying to make (That's the third time you've said that) but for three days now everything you post seems to have the aim of undermining Jews or Israel and minimising anything they suffered. If that's what you want to see in my posts, then you are entitled to do so. Obviously you haven't seen all of them. You must have missed where I wrote;

Rather than shout in anger about baby killers and murderers and retribution, funnel your energy into thinking about what might be a possible solution to the conflict.

Please stop listing the atrocities carried out by your "opponent" thinking that if their abominations are worse than yours then it puts you on the higher moral ground. It doesn't.

Neither Hamas nor the state of Israel have anything to be proud of, they are both in the gutter. Think about working towards a resolution to the conflict.

The dead are now dead, that cannot be changed, try to make some suggestions, so that there isn't further, senseless killing.

This post is brilliant and should be read by all. It’s exactly this.

The only bit I don’t really agree with is the idea that the Palestinians could have another home in another Muslim state.

Otherwise this post is so important to be said. Heard and understood,

YABU OP

@Brightlyshining

Thank you for the brilliant post which echoes my life experience identically.

I've also met people who said that Israel is the very reason for antisemitism and no wonder people hate Jews after all that's happened - all while conveniently ignoring the fact that antisemitism has existed for thousands of years, and they never seem to find an explanation for that

Very good point! They do seem to carry this hostility to Israel that they attribute to Israel's behavior - which frankly is dwarfed by the terrible actions of many, many countries (including their neighbour) and they need to do some internal digging as to why they hold such deep vitriol towards this one, tiny nation and what it really represents to them.

I've been in a situation where a random bloke has walked up to me in a public place, out of nowhere, and started saying how awful it was that children were dying in Gaza. I hadn't even said anything, I was just sitting there waiting for a friend, and yet this guy had walked up to an obviously Jewish person and started talking about Gaza. This is absolutely antisemitism. I wasn't even doing anything at the time

I read all the racism reports on the Labour party and something the Forde report mentioned that was happening was that people were showing up to their local meetings and finding Israel / Palestine was tabled on the agenda to discuss every single week and that they would find eyes boring into them and they eventually just felt to uncomfortable to go to meetings.

Of course the people doing this would say "We just care about Palestine!" Mmm. Yes!

Similarly I read the report from the Labour Muslim Network and Muslim members from Northern / Red Wall areas said they were going to meetings and on every single one grooming gangs would be tabled on the agenda and likewise they would feel horribly uncomfortable.

Of course the people doing that would say "we just care about vulnerable children.

Nah folks, there is no legitimate reason on earth a local council or political group needs to talk every week about Palestine or Grooming gangs!

This stuff happens all. the. time. And you know what's really sad is that I've experienced way more of this from left wing people compared to right wing. I've met a few right wing extremists and they've actually told me straight out that they don't like Jews, and much as that bothers me, at least they're more honest about it. Left wing people are far more dishonest, dressing up their antisemitism with academic rhetoric, or Palestine solidarity etc, when there's clearly antisemitism behind it because it's phrased in the most antagonistic way

This is exactly my own experience and many others have said that. I am so supremely tired of it!

Thanks for taking the time to post - hearing you all share this experience has made me feel less crazy. I was definitely gaslit significantly within the political groups I mixed in who would furiously deny they were doing it. I think yesterday me even speaking about the history of Israel got a reaction from someone of "oh she's gone full zionist now"

This is the acceptable racism of the left in the UK

🙄

We can respond to what we want to respond to on threads @vivainsomnia

Your question is:

"Can you, or of course anyone else, explain better the CURRENT situation in the West Bank. Precisely, How different or not is it for Jews and Palestinians living in area A, B or C? For example, do both Jews and Palestinians work as teachers in all 3 areas, and are the schools opened to both children? How about hospitals?"

And I haven't answered for two reasons

1. It is not what this thread is about (antisemitism)
2. You can get a better answer from Google

I don’t believe small children are racist. However, in the situation you mentioned, I believe we should listen to the views of the black people/person and acknowledge their feelings. I would consider my behaviour and my views. I would try to see it from someone else’s point of view. It is not for me to determine.

If someone told me I had said or done something racist, I would be embarrassed and upset and have a think about how I come across.

I've lived 46 years without anyone accusing me of being antisemitic, so like I said if it's regularly happening to you maybe you should do some thinking.

No-ones accused me of me of being antisemitic either. It’s just something I’ve noticed tends to happen on online discussions.

I don't think you have said anything antisemitic on this thread, but if I am honest, throughout it - you and one other person have seemed very much like they were needling.

My impression is that you are on this thread to prove something - ie: that Jews need to stop complaining about antisemitism or something along those lines

No I’m not trolling.

I’ve had anti semitic abuse in person. I attended a Jewish school so it was clear who I was. I never challenged it because I was a child and I feared retaliation. As an adult, I would not challenge in it person either, although I did report an extremely offensive comment to my line manager at work. I did raise it with the colleague who didn’t seem to care so I went above his head and then suddenly he cared!

It is much safer to challenge negative stereotypes online than in person. Surely, you can see that?

On many of the other threads about the atrocities in Israel, there very much ARE antisemitic posts being made.

But - embarrassingly for them - these antisemites doing the posting don't even know that they're doing it.

They are adamant that people telling them that they're posting antisemitism are wrong and just trying to shut them down.

Frustrating.

I will just be completely honest with you - you don't seem like a bad person and haven't said anything (that I clocked) that was antisemetic. But I come across people like you a lot in left wing groups. @quiteoldad is another one - nice guy, but I feel the same vibe.

What it is is this:

You participate in discussion, but needle all the way through. The agenda always feels like it's to minimise one side's naughtiness and inflate the others. A bit like a slightly nefarious devil's advocate.

So my impression is: you're two nice people who are probably left wing with good values and certainly no issues with Jews, but you have spent a long time around people demonising Israel and putting forward a one dimensional narrative of the "evil zionist" and so there's a bit of you that just plain, old doesn't like Israel.

And it doesn't matter much what the other side does. You just don't like Israel. So when you get new information, you just kind of adapt it to fit in with the narrative.

Like two days ago @quiteoldad posted on another thread with something along the lines of "Jews and Muslims lived in Harmony before Israel" - which is false, reductive, left wing dogma. It didn't happen. We lived in apartheid and were routinely murdered and mistreated for hundreds of years.

Kudos to him, he took in the new data and said it was news to him and he has clearly gone away, done a bit of research and has posted again today something along the lines of "Okay, so Jews were living as dhimmi under Muslims before Israel BUT they also treated Christians like shit so it was nothing personal and it was worse in Europe"

So, you know, I guess sometimes people have bias so deeply ingrained that they will twist almost anything around to justify their position. And I feel like maybe good people can bend into pretzels to avoid admitting what doesn't feel right.

The entire population of Palestine could come out tomorrow and vote Hamas into another terms and it would still be "yeah BUT" for some people. Because they're married to the left wing dogma.

This is how it comes across - like you just want Israel to be uniquely bad

@LemonyTicket You're welcome. I'm sure a lot of us feel the same, just that it can be difficult to articulate, and a lot of us don't bother commenting on this subject any more as there are so many people shouting us down. This thread seems like a few people are actually listening, but I'll be avoiding the other threads.

And let's not forget the time the Tricycle Theatre, now known as the Kiln, cancelled a Jewish film festival because they had a problem with Israel. Not an Israeli film festival, but a Jewish film festival. Such blatant antisemitism with that one.

These threads have dominated my time for a few days. Useful though, and I think a lot of people approached this conversation with a good faith wish to understand things better. So I am going to go and get on with overdue work but wanted to share the below post that I put on another thread as I think it's important those who are "anti zionist" think about what the word might mean to other people

I don't have any connection to Israel, and I won't move there or even visit there. However, this is my view on the concept of zionism and the importance of Israel.

It is factual that Jews originate from the middle east and thus have just as much right to feel the area is their "homeland" as a Muslim does. Particularly those who never left the area.

I am an Arab. I am middle eastern. That drips off me in my accent, my appearance, my customs (of which I have many Arab ones). We eat Arab food, we speak Arab language, we feel deeply connected to our heritage. I am indigenous to this part of the world and I have a right to my connection to it.

Yet my people have been ethnically cleansed out of almost every place there. Libya, Iran, Syria, Yemen...almost nowhere has any of us left, and almost all these countries would not allow me to live there or to have rights as a citizen.

And before people say this is a result of Israel's existence, they have to consider the truth that before Israel's existence, Jewish people were largely allowed to live in the middle east but only with status as dhimmi.

The meaning of this varied depending on country and leader at the time, but it typically meant:

• being banned from government jobs
• being banned from living where we wanted
• paying extra taxes
• being unable to testify against a Muslim in court
• being unable to legally fraternise with or marry a Muslim
• having to defer to Muslims in the street as a mark of respect
• not being allowed weapons to defend myself
• sometimes having to wear distinctive clothing (like a yellow star)

So this really was apartheid, across the entire region. Jews (and others who were not Muslim) were not allowed to live in equality, and on top of those things they were subjected to frequent violence, fairly regular arbitrary murder, stripping of property, numerous pogroms and a very deep culture of antisemitism.

And we were being ethnically cleansed long before Israel existed. 5000 of us for example were killed once because a Jew looked at a Muslim's wife in the wrong way. So people cannot blame Israel's existence for the pervading attitude that we were not equals in our homeland.

I think I, and other Jews, have a right to ask to live in the land from whence we came - the land of our food and culture and history - without needing it to be on those terms.

So I will defend to the death the principle of zionism. That Jews - equally to Arabs- have a right to say "this is our home too and we want to live in it here" and for them to be able to do that in a way where their culture, beliefs and principles are respected.

Zionism is not a call for dominance or extermination of other people. It is a response to it. It was something that was necessary because other groups would not allow minorities to exist with equal status in Europe, Africa and the Middle East.

In Britain, I can live side by side with Christians, athiests, black people, Chinese people, Muslims, homosexuals, men, women - and for the large part it is fine. In the eyes of the law (and for the large part our cultural and acceptable norms) these people are equal under the eyes of the law.

That was not the case for Jews in 1947, or for hundreds of years before that either really, and is still not the case for Jews almost entirely across the middle east. Again, before saying "oh that is because of Israel" you only have to look at the Kurds to see this is not true.

I would defend to the death their right to "zionism" too. Certainly were they ever to be exported as slaves and later face genocide in Europe. The Yazidi people have lived through 74 genocides. This is a testament to the attitude to minorities in this region. It is their home. But they have lived through endless persecution, forced conversion, sexual slavery and they are forced to take contraception to stop them breeding!

So to me the moral principle is simple: if people cannot live together multiculturally and respect those of different cultures as equals with equal rights and freedoms - then they can't live together at all.

And all the people who stand on their high horse talking about freedom and oppression and human rights need to remember this.

Israel stands now - in my eyes - not as the "imperialist, colonialist" (which is a logical fallacy) or the iron fist over the poor and downtrodden. It stands as an isolated island on it's own within the middle east where someone has dared to say "no" to Islamic dominance. And there is no justifiable reason why Islam has to dominate this entire region and insist on rule over every inch of it. It is not solely theirs.

And they must accept that. And the international community must call on them to accept that with as much fortitude as they call on Freedom for the Palestinian people.

That principle is far more important that "this is my land and you took it" - particularly as a Jew, given that we, over any people, had "our" land changed, stolen, burned, taken time after time. To us the concept of arguing about it for 100 years is so alien.

It is not important to fight over where your grandparents lived 75 years ago. This is not an important moral principle. The important moral principle are:

Muslims and Arabs deserve to have homes, cultures, countries and lives in their homeland where they are free to express their beliefs and to have lives away from persecution.

And so do Jews.

And so do Kurds.

And everyone has to accept it, and work with everyone involved to make sure they can build the lives they all deserve.

Anti zionism is, to me, denying Jews the rights they really should have had the entire time: To live in the place they came from, free

No one denies that right to Palestinians. Or anyone else. So I question how someone can deny it to Jews and claim moral absolutes.

This is my view of zionism, which is something I thought over vary carefully for decades. I don't feel it's my "Holy Land". I don't think Jews necessarily couldn't live safely in Europe and America. I don't think who was there "first" is the be all and end all. I don't even think it's an "answer" to the horror of the Holocaust.

It is simply giving Jews the right they should have had the entire time: To live in the place they came from, free and in a manner of their choosing. And both Muslims and Jews should have this right in the middle east.

So my impression is: you're two nice people who are probably left wing with good values and certainly no issues with Jews, but you have spent a long time around people demonising Israel and putting forward a one dimensional narrative of the "evil zionist" and so there's a bit of you that just plain, old doesn't like Israel.

And it doesn't matter much what the other side does. You just don't like Israel. So when you get new information, you just kind of adapt it to fit in with the narrative.

It’s true. I don’t much like Israel. That’s due to the politics of the people running it not a dislike of Jewish people or Israeli citizens. But you said you don’t always think what they do is right either?

I don’t think anyone is evil - not either side. That’s silly talk like the goodies and baddies in the programs you watched on TV as a kid.

As I said before I perceive that Palestinians to be more vulnerable than Israel - less well protected. But I say that from my ivory tower, I’m not denying that.