Page 16 | To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

Fruitandclottedcream · 2023-10-11T08:40:18+00:00

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true. The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people". Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape. Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing. And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google) Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 19:07

Defiantjazz · 12/10/2023 18:59

So my impression is: you're two nice people who are probably left wing with good values and certainly no issues with Jews, but you have spent a long time around people demonising Israel and putting forward a one dimensional narrative of the "evil zionist" and so there's a bit of you that just plain, old doesn't like Israel.

And it doesn't matter much what the other side does. You just don't like Israel. So when you get new information, you just kind of adapt it to fit in with the narrative.

It’s true. I don’t much like Israel. That’s due to the politics of the people running it not a dislike of Jewish people or Israeli citizens. But you said you don’t always think what they do is right either?

I don’t think anyone is evil - not either side. That’s silly talk like the goodies and baddies in the programs you watched on TV as a kid.

As I said before I perceive that Palestinians to be more vulnerable than Israel - less well protected. But I say that from my ivory tower, I’m not denying that.

It’s true. I don’t much like Israel. That’s due to the politics of the people running it not a dislike of Jewish people or Israeli citizens. But you said you don’t always think what they do is right either?

No. I am a left wing pacifist. I like equality. I like justice. I like freedom. I like fairness. I like peace. So there are definitely things Israel does that I really hate.

I also don't think things Britain does, Palestine does, Qatar does, China does, Russia does. I don't think Israel is uniquely guilty. I can't think of a logical reason why anyone would.

As I said before I perceive that Palestinians to be more vulnerable than Israel - less well protected. But I say that from my ivory tower, I’m not denying that

So maybe this plays into the David and Goliath thing for you. Many young people are drawn to this issue because of that. It is probably a compliment to some people because they are idealistic and seek to protect the underdog.

The thing is though: given the opportunity, those people would kill all 7 million Jews in Israel without blinking an eye. People probably struggle with understanding that, but as someone has said - to an antisemite, a Jew is always a Jew.

The Holocaust always seems like something not "real". I mean, hard to comprehend. Especially as it gets more distant with time but anyone who doesn't really understand antisemitism should visit a holocaust museum or find some way to connect with that.

They hated us in a way they literally felt we were animals to be exterminated from the planet - and sadly some people still do.

feralunderclass · 12/10/2023 19:29

@LemonyTicket I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but your statement those people would kill all 7 million Jews in Israel... is utterly abhorrent, Islamophobic, xenophobic and othering. You have just spoken on behalf of more than 5 million people that you don't know. You were very quick to tell people they need to stay in their lane and I think you should do the same. You said you haven't been to Israel, so I'm assuming you haven't been to Palestine to meet those people. I have been and met many of them, and I can assure you that you don't speak on behalf of them. Throughout this thread you couldn't even call them what they are - Palestinians. And you need to educate yourself instead of spreading hate and gaslighting posters.
I'm not from either side, but have lived with both. I have no personal interest to defend, but like you, I want peace, fairness and equality.

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 19:32

@feralunderclass

I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but your statement those people would kill all 7 million Jews in Israel... is utterly abhorrent, Islamophobic, xenophobic and othering

I am talking about Hamas.

Who have said that is exactly what they want to do and intend to do.

Please don't patronise them, they can speak for themselves.

feralunderclass · 12/10/2023 19:35

Read your last paragraph, you were talking about them all.

Defiantjazz · 12/10/2023 19:38

The thing is though: given the opportunity, those people would kill all 7 million Jews in Israel without blinking an eye. People probably struggle with understanding that, but as someone has said - to an antisemite, a Jew is always a Jew

Do you really think so? The likes of Hammas would like to drive the Israelis out and they are willing to kill innocent civilians with terrorist acts but do all Palestinians support Hammas ?

GreenVelvetCushions · 12/10/2023 19:39

Thisisnotlikehim · 11/10/2023 09:45

I think you are right. What Hamas has done is evil and abhorrent and should be completely condemned.

Jewish people have been treated badly historically and were ‘there first’ and have a right to a homeland.

However, there were decisions made, as you rightly point out, in the pursuit of that homeland that should be judged as wrong too.

It’s complex though with lots of layers of history and context and I can’t profess to understand it all. I just wish there was a way for people to live together in harmony.

Erm the Arabs were there first.
Israel was only established in 1948.

GreenVelvetCushions · 12/10/2023 19:41

MooseBreath · 11/10/2023 13:36

I am Jewish.

I am absolutely against the Netanyahu government's treatment of Palestinian civilians. I am against their decision to refuse food, water, and medication to Gaza. I am against the bombings and attacks on Palestine by the Israeli government condoned by the US (amongst other countries).

I am also absolutely against the actions of Hamas towards the Israeli civilians. I am against their ISIS-style approach of holding hostages and executions. I am against the bombings and attacks in Israel set by Hamas and condoned by Iran (amongst other countries).

As far as I'm concerned, both parties are terrorists. Jewish and Muslim civilians are victims in this shitshow. I am so glad my family does not live in Israel and is safe in their community.

100% agreed. It's horrific.

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 19:42

I know exactly what I said and exactly what I meant.

Glitterdavies · 12/10/2023 19:44

The thing is what will the Israeli reservist do when they are finally allowed into Gaza?

If they kill indiscriminately then they would be the same or even worse than Hamas because they are being given the opportunity to do what they want with the entire backing of the international community.

When you talk about what Hamas would do, we would never know because they would never get the chance to 'have at it', its pure speculation.

nappiesandcontracts · 12/10/2023 19:53

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 18:51

These threads have dominated my time for a few days. Useful though, and I think a lot of people approached this conversation with a good faith wish to understand things better. So I am going to go and get on with overdue work but wanted to share the below post that I put on another thread as I think it's important those who are "anti zionist" think about what the word might mean to other people

I don't have any connection to Israel, and I won't move there or even visit there. However, this is my view on the concept of zionism and the importance of Israel.

It is factual that Jews originate from the middle east and thus have just as much right to feel the area is their "homeland" as a Muslim does. Particularly those who never left the area.

I am an Arab. I am middle eastern. That drips off me in my accent, my appearance, my customs (of which I have many Arab ones). We eat Arab food, we speak Arab language, we feel deeply connected to our heritage. I am indigenous to this part of the world and I have a right to my connection to it.

Yet my people have been ethnically cleansed out of almost every place there. Libya, Iran, Syria, Yemen...almost nowhere has any of us left, and almost all these countries would not allow me to live there or to have rights as a citizen.

And before people say this is a result of Israel's existence, they have to consider the truth that before Israel's existence, Jewish people were largely allowed to live in the middle east but only with status as dhimmi.

The meaning of this varied depending on country and leader at the time, but it typically meant:

being banned from government jobs
being banned from living where we wanted
paying extra taxes
being unable to testify against a Muslim in court
being unable to legally fraternise with or marry a Muslim
having to defer to Muslims in the street as a mark of respect
not being allowed weapons to defend myself
sometimes having to wear distinctive clothing (like a yellow star)

So this really was apartheid, across the entire region. Jews (and others who were not Muslim) were not allowed to live in equality, and on top of those things they were subjected to frequent violence, fairly regular arbitrary murder, stripping of property, numerous pogroms and a very deep culture of antisemitism.

And we were being ethnically cleansed long before Israel existed. 5000 of us for example were killed once because a Jew looked at a Muslim's wife in the wrong way. So people cannot blame Israel's existence for the pervading attitude that we were not equals in our homeland.

I think I, and other Jews, have a right to ask to live in the land from whence we came - the land of our food and culture and history - without needing it to be on those terms.

So I will defend to the death the principle of zionism. That Jews - equally to Arabs- have a right to say "this is our home too and we want to live in it here" and for them to be able to do that in a way where their culture, beliefs and principles are respected.

Zionism is not a call for dominance or extermination of other people. It is a response to it. It was something that was necessary because other groups would not allow minorities to exist with equal status in Europe, Africa and the Middle East.

In Britain, I can live side by side with Christians, athiests, black people, Chinese people, Muslims, homosexuals, men, women - and for the large part it is fine. In the eyes of the law (and for the large part our cultural and acceptable norms) these people are equal under the eyes of the law.

That was not the case for Jews in 1947, or for hundreds of years before that either really, and is still not the case for Jews almost entirely across the middle east. Again, before saying "oh that is because of Israel" you only have to look at the Kurds to see this is not true.

I would defend to the death their right to "zionism" too. Certainly were they ever to be exported as slaves and later face genocide in Europe. The Yazidi people have lived through 74 genocides. This is a testament to the attitude to minorities in this region. It is their home. But they have lived through endless persecution, forced conversion, sexual slavery and they are forced to take contraception to stop them breeding!

So to me the moral principle is simple: if people cannot live together multiculturally and respect those of different cultures as equals with equal rights and freedoms - then they can't live together at all.

And all the people who stand on their high horse talking about freedom and oppression and human rights need to remember this.

Israel stands now - in my eyes - not as the "imperialist, colonialist" (which is a logical fallacy) or the iron fist over the poor and downtrodden. It stands as an isolated island on it's own within the middle east where someone has dared to say "no" to Islamic dominance. And there is no justifiable reason why Islam has to dominate this entire region and insist on rule over every inch of it. It is not solely theirs.

And they must accept that. And the international community must call on them to accept that with as much fortitude as they call on Freedom for the Palestinian people.

That principle is far more important that "this is my land and you took it" - particularly as a Jew, given that we, over any people, had "our" land changed, stolen, burned, taken time after time. To us the concept of arguing about it for 100 years is so alien.

It is not important to fight over where your grandparents lived 75 years ago. This is not an important moral principle. The important moral principle are:

Muslims and Arabs deserve to have homes, cultures, countries and lives in their homeland where they are free to express their beliefs and to have lives away from persecution.

And so do Jews.

And so do Kurds.

And everyone has to accept it, and work with everyone involved to make sure they can build the lives they all deserve.

Anti zionism is, to me, denying Jews the rights they really should have had the entire time: To live in the place they came from, free

No one denies that right to Palestinians. Or anyone else. So I question how someone can deny it to Jews and claim moral absolutes.

This is my view of zionism, which is something I thought over vary carefully for decades. I don't feel it's my "Holy Land". I don't think Jews necessarily couldn't live safely in Europe and America. I don't think who was there "first" is the be all and end all. I don't even think it's an "answer" to the horror of the Holocaust.

It is simply giving Jews the right they should have had the entire time: To live in the place they came from, free and in a manner of their choosing. And both Muslims and Jews should have this right in the middle east.

Thank you for this and for all your posts. I'm learning so much from you and some others on this thread. Really appreciate you taking the time to explain the history and context of what's happening now.

vivainsomnia · 12/10/2023 19:54

And I haven't answered for two reasons it is not what this thread is about (antisemitism) You can get a better answer from Google

really, that's your answer? Will you respond if I post in the numerous other threads about this matter? I suppose not.

I remember your first post on the other thread and I really liked it and agreed with it. You went on about people having opinions when lacking education on the matter and not willing to learn, taking their knowledge from dodgy sources etc...

And you are refusing to answer my query with a dubious response and telling me to go on Google! Ironically, it's because there is little available talking about current life in the 3 areas of the West Bank that I came here to try to learn from those who say they are scholars.

I really liked your interventions on the previous thread, but now I'm not so sure you are unbiased under the name of your expertise and knowledge of the Far East.

I was genuinely after knowledge to better understand something that I struggle to get with Google but nevermind, I'll go somewhere else where 'experts' are genuinely interested in educating others rather than only sharing what they want to share under the guise of their expertise.

Teder · 12/10/2023 19:56

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 19:42

I know exactly what I said and exactly what I meant.

I understand you were referring to Hamas and not every day civilians. Your posts and tone on the thread has never - in any way - suggested you hold those views.

You clarified you meant Hamas and there is no reason to disbelieve you.

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 19:58

@Glitterdavies

If they kill indiscriminately then they would be the same or even worse than Hamas because they are being given the opportunity to do what they want with the entire backing of the international community

When you talk about what Hamas would do, we would never know because they would never get the chance to 'have at it', its pure speculation

You're trying to draw a comparison here that hurts my brain.

I have never heard any Jew, any Jewish group or the state of Israel say verbally or in any written statement that they wanted to wipe out Muslims. I don't think I have ever heard that, ever, anywhere. Have you?

So what do you think it is they "want to do"?

vivainsomnia · 12/10/2023 19:59

I am talking about Hamas
Indeed, that's all you seem to want to talk about when referencing to Palestinians. Why? I really don't get why you are not willing to talk about the others.

And so much for your first excuse? You seem to find no issues talking about the Hamas here when as you told me, it's not what the thread is about!

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 20:03

vivainsomnia · 12/10/2023 19:54

And I haven't answered for two reasons it is not what this thread is about (antisemitism) You can get a better answer from Google

really, that's your answer? Will you respond if I post in the numerous other threads about this matter? I suppose not.

I remember your first post on the other thread and I really liked it and agreed with it. You went on about people having opinions when lacking education on the matter and not willing to learn, taking their knowledge from dodgy sources etc...

And you are refusing to answer my query with a dubious response and telling me to go on Google! Ironically, it's because there is little available talking about current life in the 3 areas of the West Bank that I came here to try to learn from those who say they are scholars.

I really liked your interventions on the previous thread, but now I'm not so sure you are unbiased under the name of your expertise and knowledge of the Far East.

I was genuinely after knowledge to better understand something that I struggle to get with Google but nevermind, I'll go somewhere else where 'experts' are genuinely interested in educating others rather than only sharing what they want to share under the guise of their expertise.

What a weird post. Why do you feel entitled to complex answer from me on infrastructure the west bank? I am entitled to talk about whatever I want by the way. And you're very rudely demanding I derail the thread onto a topic of your choosing and spend time answering something that would be very long, complicated and would likely change the topic to something we are not discussing. I am tired. I don't feel like doing that. What an attitude!

Defiantjazz · 12/10/2023 20:06

I understand you were referring to Hamas and not every day civilians. Your posts and tone on the thread has never - in any way - suggested you hold those views.

You clarified you meant Hamas and there is no reason to disbelieve you

Wasn’t clear in the initial post but yeah

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 20:09

vivainsomnia · 12/10/2023 19:59

I am talking about Hamas
Indeed, that's all you seem to want to talk about when referencing to Palestinians. Why? I really don't get why you are not willing to talk about the others.

And so much for your first excuse? You seem to find no issues talking about the Hamas here when as you told me, it's not what the thread is about!

The infrastructure of the West Bank doesn't have anything to do with a discussion around antisemitism vs anto zionism.

There are no "excuses". I don't want to get into a detailed discussion about the west bank, it would be disrespectful to the meaning of the thread. Why do you think I need an "excuse"? Do I work for you? 👀

I have been scratching my head at why you have had this weird reaction and I suspect what's happening is that you know Israel is doing terrible things on the West Bank, so you're trying to lure me (or more sledgehammer me) into discussing Israel's crimes so you can say "ah look how bad they are"

Can you not see that's rather missing the point of the thread?

It doesn't actually matter how bad they are. What matters (in regards to antisemitism) is that you are able to hold israel to the same standards as you do everywhere else.

ForFriends · 12/10/2023 20:19

@LemonyTicket 's posts have been brilliant, educated, measured and very important as a voice of reason and to provide additional context on MN👏👏👏.

It's not surprising that a certain type of blinkered poster with an agenda will always bring the topic back to the sad situation of the Palestinians, their dead, their suffering. What these posters rarely do is admit that Hamas is at the centre of the problem where Gazans are concerned. Hamas is controlling and abusing ordinary Palestinians. They are brainwashing their innocent precious children to grow up to hate. They are preventing peace and stand in the way of any constructive solution. They are misappropriating stealing aid money and rather than build infrastructure they built underground tunnels for their terror network as well as beautiful, safe villas for themselves and their families.

Hamas' raison d'etre is violence. They are crooks and criminals with a disingenuous nod to Islam. They engage in criminal activity, arms, drugs, trafficking and worse. Basically a bunch of thugs who big themselves up with a so called cause. Only they are not looking after their people, which is to ensure the best possible living situation for Gazans. That would be to negotiate and find a long lasting peaceful solution for either living side by side or living together, trading, supporting each other. But Hamas doesn't want that, they want all Jews dead and Israel wiped off the map, that's their proudly stated aim. And while they're at it they want to rape, murder and abuse every bit of power they regrettably have. I feel sorry for their women and children, whom they use as human shields. A Palestinian once said Israelis use rockets to protect their people, Hamas use their people to protect rockets. Sums it up.

vivainsomnia · 12/10/2023 20:20

I'll stop here. I'm only interested in gaining better knowledge on the current situation in Israel. You intimated you wanted to educate those who lacked knowledge but failed to mention that you would be selective in terms of what you wanted to share.

That's fine. You indeed don't have to answer to strangers. I'll find the information, hopefully, from other experts more willing to educate on the full situation, not just picking what suits them in the name of education.

Teder · 12/10/2023 21:31

Defiantjazz · 12/10/2023 20:06

I understand you were referring to Hamas and not every day civilians. Your posts and tone on the thread has never - in any way - suggested you hold those views.

You clarified you meant Hamas and there is no reason to disbelieve you

Wasn’t clear in the initial post but yeah

I think it was clear based on the way that poster has been throughout. I appreciate it could have been worded better.

Someone else was just waiting to jump on it and couldn’t wait!!

mindandsensespurified · 12/10/2023 21:48

I've just been on another thread which is absolutely rife with inaccuracies, casual anti-semitism and ignorance. This thread is so thoughtful and educational by comparison. I really hope more people find it as I've learned so much.

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 22:18

@Teder

It was also the person who'd been blatantly antisemitic all the way through the thread and was really indignant over being told. One badly phrased comment and she was all over me ha ha!

WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps · 12/10/2023 22:33

I find the whole anti-Israel movement, argument and tendency thoroughly depressing. And loathsome.

Antisemitism is so ingrained in so many countries that it seems impossible to counter. Much of the problem is that the left and ‘progressives’ are so instrumental in this pernicious hatred.

If the supposedly humane and enlightened left are consumed with prejudice towards Jews, what hope is there?

I just trust that Israel as a state and Israelis as a people understand that sensible opinion around the world is with them.

MeganSupervision · 12/10/2023 22:35

feralunderclass · 12/10/2023 19:29

@LemonyTicket I wasn't going to come back to this thread, but your statement those people would kill all 7 million Jews in Israel... is utterly abhorrent, Islamophobic, xenophobic and othering. You have just spoken on behalf of more than 5 million people that you don't know. You were very quick to tell people they need to stay in their lane and I think you should do the same. You said you haven't been to Israel, so I'm assuming you haven't been to Palestine to meet those people. I have been and met many of them, and I can assure you that you don't speak on behalf of them. Throughout this thread you couldn't even call them what they are - Palestinians. And you need to educate yourself instead of spreading hate and gaslighting posters.
I'm not from either side, but have lived with both. I have no personal interest to defend, but like you, I want peace, fairness and equality.

That Lemony poster receives much praise for her long articulate academic posts. She said on another thread that people let their antisemitism slip out. I have seen her anti-Palestinian views slip out on more than one occasion now. Even intelligent and educated posters can’t always hide their prejudice, whatever form that may take.

Tandora · 12/10/2023 22:35

LemonyTicket · 12/10/2023 18:51

These threads have dominated my time for a few days. Useful though, and I think a lot of people approached this conversation with a good faith wish to understand things better. So I am going to go and get on with overdue work but wanted to share the below post that I put on another thread as I think it's important those who are "anti zionist" think about what the word might mean to other people

I don't have any connection to Israel, and I won't move there or even visit there. However, this is my view on the concept of zionism and the importance of Israel.

It is factual that Jews originate from the middle east and thus have just as much right to feel the area is their "homeland" as a Muslim does. Particularly those who never left the area.

I am an Arab. I am middle eastern. That drips off me in my accent, my appearance, my customs (of which I have many Arab ones). We eat Arab food, we speak Arab language, we feel deeply connected to our heritage. I am indigenous to this part of the world and I have a right to my connection to it.

Yet my people have been ethnically cleansed out of almost every place there. Libya, Iran, Syria, Yemen...almost nowhere has any of us left, and almost all these countries would not allow me to live there or to have rights as a citizen.

And before people say this is a result of Israel's existence, they have to consider the truth that before Israel's existence, Jewish people were largely allowed to live in the middle east but only with status as dhimmi.

The meaning of this varied depending on country and leader at the time, but it typically meant:

being banned from government jobs
being banned from living where we wanted
paying extra taxes
being unable to testify against a Muslim in court
being unable to legally fraternise with or marry a Muslim
having to defer to Muslims in the street as a mark of respect
not being allowed weapons to defend myself
sometimes having to wear distinctive clothing (like a yellow star)