To think people don't actually understand the difference between Anti Zionism and Anti-Semetism in the context of the current conflict?

[Fruitandclottedcream]

Every time someone criticises the Israeli State or Zionism ideology, there is always someone who comments shouting about Anti-Semitism and how anyone who questions, criticises or condemns Israel's behaviour is Anti-Semitic. And it's really annoying because it's not true.

The definition of Anti-Semitism is "Prejudice or Hostility towards Jewish people".

Anti-Zionism in the context of the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine is being opposed to Israel's decades long oppression, genocide and apartheid of Palestinians. Including but not limited to leaving people stateless, giving Palestinians less rights than Israelis and creating the open air prison that is Gaza, depriving the people there of water, electricity and food, and bombing relentlessly while not giving anyone a way to escape.

Plenty of Jewish people practice their faith, but are anti Zionist and condemn what the Israeli government are doing.

And plenty of Zionists are Anti-Semites, but support the behaviour of the Israeli government (including a decent chunk of British MPs according to Google)

Disclaimer before anyone jumps on me: I absolutely condemn and despise Hamas and their actions. I've not mentioned them as they're not relevant to my point.

At the moment Area B is in a shameful state of apartheid. Jewish settlements expand; Arab settlements are denied a permit and demolished. There are checkpoints. Jewish thugs roam around destroying agricultural produce with impunity and the law is not enforced. The right wing extremists are trying to drive out the Arabs from the West Bank, which is why they ignored Gaza.

There has been an unspoken confluence of interest between the Israeli far right and Hamas, which will be spoken about more after this war has concluded. For now it suffices that the forces of moderation have been invited into the emergency unity government.

So Islam will always grow, and Judaism will always shrink
I was surprised to read this in regards to the law of return in regards to the last group. That would make me eligible, something that has never ever even crossed my mind.

The law since 1970 applies to the following groups:Those born Jews according to the Orthodox interpretation; having a Jewish mother or maternal grandmother. Those with Jewish ancestry – having a Jewish father or grandfather

I think to move forward, the focus needs to be on the West Bank as it stands now. Not looking at history but how it is divided now.

No, the violence is not mutual.

There are serious wrongs committed in the West Bank, particularly by the settler extremists. Stones are thrown; olive trees are burned. A day ago there were 3 murders by masked gunmen. It's shameful, a bit like Kosovo or Cyprus or Northern Ireland levels of community hostility with state backing for one side.

The people of the Gaza border settlements are the most left wing, peace loving people in all of Israel, and they bore the brunt of the Islamic State style massacre.

It's not a competition. One does not excuse the other. I reject strongly any suggestion of a link of causation.

To those posters with extensive knowledge of the history, as a person more interested in understanding rather than debating on the terminology of words, could I ask you to educate me (others) on the Oslo accord and decision of divide the West Bank in 3 areas

The Oslo accord created the Palestinian National Authority who were meant to partially govern the West Bank and Gaza Strip (but don’t currently)
The settlements were mean to stop but Netanyahu carried on
It wasn’t a massive success.

Rabin and Arafat came achingly close to a deal during the Clinton era. Arafat wanted sovereignty over Haram Al Sharif / Temple Mount. Rabin offered a 999 year lease. The talks broke up, and Arafat decided he'd try his luck with a terrorist campaign and see if he could get a better deal. The second Intifada started, thousands died, Israel reoccupied parts of Area C, and it has been dysfunctional since.

Sharon got elected and decided to withdraw unilaterally from Gaza. It fell out of the control of the sclerotic Palestinian Authority within two years into the hands of the terrorists of Hamas.

No leadership on either side.

Thanks so much for this. I have literally taken three days off work at this point. But important to at least try and inform people of things if it's going to be a "hot topic".

Jewishness runs deep in Jewish people, because, us being so is really a testament to those who came before us through thousands of years and were brave in ways we can't understand. Generation after generation who refused to convert, refused to give up customs and ways of life in the face of much larger power.

I don't think our religion or nationality or even traditions define us, but we are and always will be a group :)

Rabin and Arafat came achingly close to a deal during the Clinton era. Arafat wanted sovereignty over Haram Al Sharif / Temple Mount. Rabin offered a 999 year lease. The talks broke up, and Arafat decided he'd try his luck with a terrorist campaign and see if he could get a better deal. The second Intifada started, thousands died, Israel reoccupied parts of Area C, and it has been dysfunctional since.

Ariel Sharon didn’t help matters much tbf

So you want us to let you be racist so you don't feel insulted????

So you want us to let you be racist so you don't feel insulted????

I asked you if I’d said anything antisemitic and you said no. So why were you insinuating I was a racist?

Ah, the ol' "being called racist is just as bad as actually being the victim of racism".

You are right of course. And interestingly Arab Israelis don't want to fight against Israel - they are happy and like their lives so as a rule aren't interested in rocking the boat, because what you say is right.

But it doesn't allow for the reality that, the Arab league weren't and aren't remotely keen on western ideas of democracy and equality being imposed on them. Actually some of our idea of equality are very offensive to them

@Pollyputhekettleon

I do think you're being optimistic, yes. At one point, around 1939, the British proposed that the Jews should just get 500 square miles I think it was. The Arabs still rejected it. Former dhimmis don't get sovereignty on Islamic lands. Lands conquered by Islam cannot be voluntarily handed over to former dhimmis at the request of other non-muslims

When left wing idealists accept this, they will begin to grasp the truth of the situation.

Ah, the ol' "being called racist is just as bad as actually being the victim of racism

Lets wait for her to answer the question please

I just wanted to point out that for anyone who still thinks Hamas and their supporters all over the world are anti-zionist, not anti-semitic that some Jewish schools in England are going to be closed tomorrow because of an increased threat. Hamas, the so-called "Freedom Fighters", have called upon their supporters to go out and find Jews to kill on Friday the 13th.

Maybe this can go some way to explain why a lot of us feel uncomfortable with anti-Israel rhetoric - we know what the enemy is actually after, and it's not land. It's death to all Jews, including my primary aged children in England.

This is a really key point as people continue to show up saying "criticising Israel isn't antisemitic" - ignoring the fact this is not the question which has been asked.

Antisemitism and Islamophobia are fairly well designed concepts.

CRITICING HAMMAS (currently government of Gaza)
is NOT Islamophobic.
You can even attack them aggressively for their specific actions

SAYING PALESTINE HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST (or claiming it's a terrorist endeavor as a concept)
IS Islamophobic
Because it is denying the right of Muslims to self determination and flourishing in their own state.

CRITICISING THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT
is NOT antisemitic
You can even attack them aggressively for their specific actions

SAYING ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST (and claiming zionism is "genocide")
IS antisemitic
Because it is denying the right of Jews to self determination and flourishing in their own state.

The idea that you can't do those things without being antisemitic or Islamophobic is nonsense, and if you are saying that you CAN'T do it and feel stifled then you have to go away and seriously have a word with yourself.

I am able to criticise Hamas for days. Write long essays on their specific actions. Condemn them in the strongest possible terms WITHOUT CALLING FOR PALESTINE TO NO LONGER EXIST.

There is absolutely no need to do that!

@andtheworldrollson

It's not love - and it helps to keep the hatred and fear going for generations- is that the future you want for your children?

Was it love that motivated the Germans during the nazi years ? No it was fear and self preservation and it led to great evil

In am sorry, but I just cannot let this slide.

The Germans did not become complicit in the Holocaust because they were "scared". They were motivated by antisemitism. They were motivated by the same ideas that led to our previous genocides, pogrums and massacres that Jews were uniquely terrible, and therefore them being treated badly was probably okay.

German people were not "scared" when they voted voluntarily for Hitler. He had been one of the most famous speakers in Germany for over 10 years. He had literally written Mein Kampf. They knew what he was and a number of them agreed.

They themselves may not have been evil, but they allowed evil to flourish because their antisemitism blinded them to right and wrong.

Likewise, the Palestinian people knew who Hamas was. They knew they were depraved terrorists who wanted Jews dead.

Antisemitism has existed since human being learned what hate meant, and no prejudice is more sophisticated in the ways it's evolved to keep itself going long after society realised prejudice is wrong.

Please don't patronise this woman by telling her what motivates her or comparing her to the German's who were probably complicit in killing her ancestors.

She understands what they didn't - that Jews - like you and everyone else, are entitled to live free from persecution and they are most certainly free to do it in the land from where they came.

Obviously it isn't pleasant, but if a Jewish person wants to call me antisemitic I believe in free speech, I wouldn't be offended. Whilst I have no doubt that some antisemitics attack the notion of zionism as a method of attacking Jews, I do believe there are people who are anti Zionist without being antisemitic. It's interesting that Jews are allowed to be anti Zionist without being labelled antisemitic (the reasons of their anti Zionist sentiment are irrelevant). I very much do feel that within the context of Israel/Palestine it is a tool to silence any form of dissent towards Israel.
It's very hard to judge tone on the Internet, so I want to make it very clear that my posts are not angry/shout/aggressive etc, in person I've had many a good discussion with friends in Israel who have a range of opinions on this matter. We didn't always agree, but we agreed to disagree and are friends. And I have no 'skin' here, I went to Israel very open minded to do an internship with an Israeli NGO. What I saw over time though completely changed my mind and still haunts me years later.

CRITICISING THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT
is NOT antisemitic
You can even attack them aggressively for their specific actions

SAYING ISRAEL HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST (and claiming zionism is "genocide")
IS antisemitic
Because it is denying the right of Jews to self determination and flourishing in their own state

Yeah I’m the former not the latter. One take away I have from this thread is that anti-Zionism is taken to mean the destruction of Israel rather than just disapproval of its governments right wing tendencies. As I said before in that case I am not anti Zionist.

"we will ensure that every Palestinian child will go to a school that is as good as the schools Jewish children will go to, that hospitals will be as good and as well resourced in the Palestinian areas as in the Jewish areas, that the laws will be imposed equally regardless of ethnicity or faith, that displaced people will be supported to set up a new life, that investment and development will be equal in both areas, that we will work together to run Israel/Palestine fir the benefit of all"

But if there was a 2 state solution, why would it be up to Israel to do these things? Palestine would be its own self-governing country, as it is now under Hamas and the Palestinian authority in the West Bank. It would be up to their government to provide all of those things. Unfortunately, their government is not interested in that. They are interested in terrorism, destroying Israel, and using their resources for warmongering and the people they are supposed to be providing for. Afghanistan is self-governing now and was before 9/11. They did not provide schools and hospitals. They beheaded people threw them off buildings and stopped girls from going to school. They are not all poor innocents corrupted by British colonialism to the point that 80 years later, they can not think for themselves. They are power-hungry Islamists who don't care for anything or anyone apart from themselves and use something some other warlord 1000 years ago said to justify what they want, cheered on by British Leftists living comfortably in London dreaming about overthrowing Capitalism while they benefit from it.

This is an account of the dhimmitude under which Jews lived in their homeland of the middle east under Muslim rule. It is - quite literally - apartheid

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-treatment-of-jews-in-arab-islamic-countries

Here is Amnesty's 2022 report on Hamas' oppression of it's own people

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/palestine-state-of/report-palestine-state-of/

They are one of the most oppressive governments on earth. Hence calling Israel "oppressive" seems to be a very distorted way to see it.

This weird analogy is just more or the same avoidance.

Racism is so simple.

If the victim says it's racist, and the textbooks say it's racist, and lots of others are saying "hey that's racist"

Just don't say it.

The MacPherson principle states: "In the report, Macpherson offered as a principle that all complaints about incidents of racism should be recorded and investigated as such, when they are perceived by the complainant or someone else as acts of racism"

@LemonyTicket you cannot make any response without whataboutery. When someone asks you about how the Israeli policy treats Palestinians you start talking about Hamas and Jews under Arab rule. It is possible to seperate the issues. It very much comes across as you think the inhumane treatment is justified. I'm not saying that in a goady way BTW.

Just to be clear, the MacPherson principle did not state that if a complainant believes something to be racist that it is racist. It said it should be investigated as such. There is a difference.

This is because you don't like the idea of Jews as the victim. You have spent the whole thread throwing out energy of a child sitting on it's hands trying not to take a biscuit it really want to take

The Nazis who wanted to exterminate Jews were evil

The broader leadership of the middle east who shared Nazi antisemitic ideology and conspired with them, were also evil

The remaining people (like Hamas) who STILL share Nazi ideology of wanting to exterminate Jews are and always will be evil

And Jews will always be the victim of that.

Perhaps we make better victims when we go quietly into showers, but the way you are trying to shame this woman is shameful