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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be sickened by Hamas

1000 replies

MindfullyAmazedHorse · 10/10/2023 22:08

AIBU to be sickened by what Hamas terrorists have done to innocent Israeli citizens?

I am not totally familiar with the whole Israeli - Palestinian situation. I don’t think anything political can explain what has happened over the last few days.

It is utterly horrendous what Hamas has done. I also think that Hamas are no friend to the Palestinians. They are bringing wrath on them.

I have read that this is the worst attack on innocent Jewish people since the holocaust, which is horrifying.

I am struggling to process these recent events.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
43
BigBillyButterBollocks · 11/10/2023 15:38

1dayatatime · 11/10/2023 15:35

@BigBillyButterBollocks

"As a parent, it's pretty awful watching Palestinians crying as small body bags pile up in carts. The Israeli government announced it, so we all knew it was coming, but it's awful to watch. I can't imagine going out a celebrating that. Thought makes me feel sick."

+++

Well on that we can wholeheartedly agree. And I am glad you accept that those of whatever affiliation seen to be supporting and sympathising with terrorists need to be arrested and taken off the streets.

As for what defines celebrating or supporting terrorism that is for the criminal justice system to decide but it should be applied equally to all terrorist groups.

I don't know why you quoted me, I didn't post that 🤔

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 15:39

Justanotherlurker · 11/10/2023 15:34

It's like you've gone to some socialist meetings wearing a Palestinian flag and said "solidarity" to everyone you speak to and ended up some kind of robot. You are regurgitating Iran state propaganda, and probably watching "Palestine Live" off Iran state paid TV and thinking it's unbiased news.

Have to agree there have been some very insteresting takes on these threads, I have seen word for word russian and Hamas dissinfo on these threads coming from the so called critical thinkers of the left.

I have absolutely no doubt Iran and Russia are putting vast sums of money into disinformation online. Relentless anti Israel propaganda. The fact so many people have come to this thread with a rehearsed and completely flawed version of events shows how well it works.

The problem is though, if you don't actually know the correct story, then your opinion is based on lies isn't it? It's a nonsense opinion.

Daftasabroom · 11/10/2023 15:39

Pollyputhekettleon · 11/10/2023 15:15

Yes I can see why it would be hard to understand an opposing argument that you just made up yourself. It would feel slightly schizophrenic I suppose. Strawmen are intended to be whacked, not understood, after all. But if at any stage you decide you might answer the argument I made, you're welcome to do so. I'm sure I expressed it in very clear language.

But why not draw the "I was here first" line, at the Romans, the Christians etc. The Jews were not the first people in the Levant or that part of the Eastern Mediterranean so to claim a right of precedence over every other culture, or religion, is plainly ridiculous.

ConkerGame · 11/10/2023 15:40

@LemonyTicket the "both sides" people are the only people who are going to be able to bring a solution to this issue. Neither side has universal support, so there's no point trying to push for one side to "win" and destroy the other (which would just lead to even more violence and deaths on both sides, and would be supporting genocide, anyway).

We need to draw a line now, as civilians on both sides have suffered too much and it's high time the international community finds someone with the power and ability to be neutral (I have no idea who this is but am praying they can be found) to treat both communities as equals (I mean both sets of civilians, not Hammas or the current Israeli government, which both need to be stood down) and find a solution on that basis, with no intention to "punish" either set of civilians for the sins of their "leaders".

1dayatatime · 11/10/2023 15:40

@BigBillyButterBollocks

My bad that should have been directed at @Itllbefine6

BigBillyButterBollocks · 11/10/2023 15:40

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 15:33

You are on a thread defending the most heinous acts of terrorism by painting Palestinians as inherently helpless victims and Jews as inherently evil overlords. The crux of your argument seems to be the meanie Jews drove them to it by being meanie.

What has just been pointed out to you is that actually plenty of people have been through this. Losing homes and land is not exclusive to Palestinians. over a million Jews also had their homes and land taken in Gaza, West Bank and dozens of Arab countries and guess what none of them became? Terrorists!

Amazing hey!?!

Excuse me? Have I defended Hamas? Or their crimes? No I haven't. How dare you?

I defend Palestinians, yes.

AbraKedavra · 11/10/2023 15:40

BigBillyButterBollocks · 11/10/2023 14:38

From an article explaining teh video.

“If I don’t steal your home, someone else will steal it,” was the answer given by an Israeli settler to Muna al-Kurd, a young Palestinian woman who accused him of stealing her home in the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood in the occupied East Jerusalem.

The dialogue, captured on video by Palestinian Tamer Maqalda on Saturday, shows 23-year-old al-Kurd confronting the settler in the garden of her family home.

In the video, al-Kurd is heard telling the settler in English: “Jacob, you know that this is not your home.”
The settler replies : “Yes, but if I go, you don’t go back, so what’s the problem? Why are you yelling at me?”

A favourite clip of the haters.

What's actually happening there is that the house belongs to an American Jewish Org, and Jacob is living there as a free tenant, in return for guarding over the property.

It's true that it isn't his house - he's only a tenant - and equally true that if he leaves another tenant will be found.

The Sheikh Jarrah issue is one that took over 40 years to filter through the courts until is was finally settled. Basically we're talking about properties that were owned by Jews fair and square, and who still have the deeds to prove ownership.

They lost access to their homes in 1948 when Jordan occupied East Jerusalem, and Arabs stole the land. After 1967, when Israel took back East Jerusalem, the original owners and inabitants of those properties petitioned the courts to have the Arab squatters evicted.

It was a decades-long process, during which many compromises were tried by the courts (including symbolic rent payments of mere pennies), but all agreements were rejected or broken by the squatters.

Eventually, the courts ruled that the squatters can be evicted and the homes returned to their original and rightful owners.

So while it's true that there are often several generations of Arabs living in those homes, they were squatters all along, whose 'tenancy' only started after the Jordanian occupation of 1948.

To add a further layer, some Jewish owners grew tired of going through the whole court procedure, decade after decade, so they sold their properties to an American Jewish Org.

What Sheikh Jarrah isn't and never had been, is ethinc cleansing of Arabs.

In fact, to accuse Israel of that, one would have to believe that sane people would try the equivalent of emptying a swimming pool with a teaspoon.

Daftasabroom · 11/10/2023 15:40

Mustardseed86 · 11/10/2023 15:13

Well, that is your characterisation. As you know, it was the decision of the UN, not the British - although they/we did handle things badly. But it wasn't 'ours' to hand over.

In what sense did the British commit and enable ethnic cleansing?

where were the UN in 1917

1dayatatime · 11/10/2023 15:42

@BigBillyButterBollocks

Lawd

+++

Change of view? - do you view cutting off the electricity supply to Gaza to reduce Hamas ability to wage war against Israel as a war crime or not.

Because it most definitely isn't.

Cuddlecouch · 11/10/2023 15:42

The LA times and the Israeli army have retracted the story about beheading babies. I do not believe anything coming out of the western out Israeli media at the moment. Its better to stick to sources on the ground on both sides, and you'll see how terrified everyone is. Why does Israel need to make up stories? What is the agenda here? Is the actual horror of what happened not enough for this blood thirsty occupying regime?

Can we pls stop spreading damaging propaganda on mn. There's enough actual horror taking place without spreading racist and damaging tropes that were called out as fake 24 hours ago. When I questioned the validity of the story yesterday I was called anti semitic and shut down.

SomeCatFromJapan · 11/10/2023 15:44

Any links for the retractions?

BigBillyButterBollocks · 11/10/2023 15:45

1dayatatime · 11/10/2023 15:42

@BigBillyButterBollocks

Lawd

+++

Change of view? - do you view cutting off the electricity supply to Gaza to reduce Hamas ability to wage war against Israel as a war crime or not.

Because it most definitely isn't.

I see cutting off Water and food supplies to Gaza as crimes against humanity that Israel is committing under our eyes. 100%. Nothing to be twisted there.

Daftasabroom · 11/10/2023 15:45

etmoietmoietmoi · 11/10/2023 15:27

But yes, the Brits pretty much did hand over Palestine to Zionists minorities AND commit and enable the ethnic cleansing of the local islamic population.

"Zionist minorities". Who are "Zionist minorities"?

What you really mean is the remaining European Jews who hadn't been exterminated don't you? Your use of language is very deliberate. Why couldn't you just say Jewish minorities or Jewish refugees? You specifically used the term Zionist in an attempt dehumanise Jews. @Daftasabroom

Nope I mean, following on from the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - 1930's. So sometime before either the pogroms or the extermination camps (probably humanity's lowest point).

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 15:48

@Tinklyheadtilt

has gone full zionist here

What does that mean exactly? Full blown belief in Jewish people's right to flourish in their state in the principles of equality afforded to all other nations? Err. Yes, why would anyone not be?

Why are you not addressing what Israel have done?

This thread is about condemning Hamas, the whataboutery is disgusting. It's disgusting that even in the face of that you can't even allow five minutes to condemn these terrorists rather than trying to twist them into victims. Why is that?

Why are you so aggressively against Palestinians and Arabs more generally?

I am an Arab. I form opinions based on facts. If the facts had been the other way around and it had been Jews who kept Muslims in servitude for hundreds of years and then decided they'd rather kill them than allow them freedom, I'd swap sides! As is, all they have asked for is perfectly reasonable things. It is the "Jews must die" brigade who clearly have the problem.

Bias is a prejudice. That is what you have. Even in the face of really obvious evidence, you tie yourselves into knots so you can keep the gig going. Why is that? Is it some misguided "the brown people must always be the underdog" thing (even if they are terrorists it must be someone else's fault) or do you just hate Israel?

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 15:51

Daftasabroom · 11/10/2023 15:40

where were the UN in 1917

They didn't exist until 1945

Syrupyslop · 11/10/2023 15:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Its like you are reading a completely different poster to me that is also called @LemonyTicket . I have found their posts really informative. I notice that you are not able to address or counter the actual facts they say they are presenting , but just throw accusations without providing a basis for them.

Not impressive.

AbraKedavra · 11/10/2023 15:51

Daftasabroom · 11/10/2023 15:39

But why not draw the "I was here first" line, at the Romans, the Christians etc. The Jews were not the first people in the Levant or that part of the Eastern Mediterranean so to claim a right of precedence over every other culture, or religion, is plainly ridiculous.

The Jews (Israelites, later Judeans) had a sovereign kingdom which lasted over 1200 years.

Since then, nobody else has made Judea/Israel their sovereign country. It was always ruled by colonisers. What happened in 1948 was Jews finally decolonising the land.

Furthermore, as I pointed out in the other thread, private land and sovereign governship always gets conflated in this debate.

When a country declares an essentially stateless land as their own, they are not stealing land from any individual who happens to live there. If Labour wins the next election my home will still be my home, only the government will have changed.

Same if say Northern Ireland is granted independence. People's homes wouldn't be 'stolen', there would just be a different government.

Now I can understand the sentiment of a country being stolen, if a foreign government invades and makes it theirs. But that's not what happened in Israel.

There never was a Palestinian autonomous country. In fact there never even was a specific Palestinian identity, independent than say Jordanian Arabs. They were simply Arabs of the Levant.

Auvergne63 · 11/10/2023 15:52

rinbaud · 11/10/2023 15:27

And the Germans because they had been so beastly after ww1 and the Versailles Treaty reparations got off virtually scot-free and even got a Marshall Plan of aid - whose people who had embarked on the industrial slaughter of the Jewish race and plunged the world into war. Who says crime doesn't pay.

The Marshall Plan didn't happen until 1948. The Treaty of Versailles assured that the second world happened as the Germans' economy was crippled by the repayments they had to make to the Allies. This led to hyper inflation and the rise of Nazism. Get you facts right, please.

Tinklyheadtilt · 11/10/2023 15:52

I simply don't believe you are an Arab I'm afraid, not with the rubbish you are spouting.

There is no whataboutery here. I've seen plenty of people here condemn Hamas and what they have done it is disgusting

What I haven't seen from you is any kind of condemnation that the actions from Israel that has led to this situation.

Efacsen · 11/10/2023 15:52

1dayatatime · 11/10/2023 15:11

@BigBillyButterBollocks

"I mean sure, killing everyone in Gaza will kill those who are Hamas member, sure. But that is a genocide."

+++

Cutting off the electricity supply to Gaza in order to reduce Hamas ability to wage war against Israel is not a war crime and it most certainly isn't genocide. It is a standard and established military action when waging a war.

But it's not just electricity is it? It's electricity plus water, food, fuel, medicines etc
UN says it's a war crime and I'm happy with that

Hopefully the US can 'help' them row back from a total blockade without loss of face

Daftasabroom · 11/10/2023 15:53

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 15:51

They didn't exist until 1945

Quite - so it's a bit much to deflect blame from Britain to the UN for events and decisions prior to 1945.

FarEast · 11/10/2023 15:54

Basically, Hamas want to wipe Israel - and all Jews - from the face of the earth. It's pretty much in their public manifesto.

The depth of anti-Semitism in the world is shocking. This is a reminder of why we need Israel as a safe sanctuary for theJews.

LemonyTicket · 11/10/2023 15:55

Tinklyheadtilt · 11/10/2023 15:52

I simply don't believe you are an Arab I'm afraid, not with the rubbish you are spouting.

There is no whataboutery here. I've seen plenty of people here condemn Hamas and what they have done it is disgusting

What I haven't seen from you is any kind of condemnation that the actions from Israel that has led to this situation.

I couldn't give a monkeys what you think.

What you will never get from me is any sort of acknowledgment something Israel did led to people being terrorists.

Being a terrorist is a choice.

Thousands of years of persecution and genocide and we did not strap on suicide vests. This is a "them" problem", so stop trying to blame someone else and let them be accountable.

Mustardseed86 · 11/10/2023 15:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Full Zionist? How on earth do you think that's an acceptable comment?

Syrupyslop · 11/10/2023 16:01

What you will never get from me is any sort of acknowledgment something Israel did led to people being terrorists

This. This is the crux of it. There is no defence or justification for the atrocity that has been committed by Hamas. I stand unashamedly firm on that too.

Even in the face of really obvious evidence, you tie yourselves into knots so you can keep the gig going And this is at the heart of it too. This is what I am finding so appalling. That even after these atrocities people still refuse to unequivocably condemn it but still look to excuse, shift blame, remove focus from the victims. I'm truly appalled by it. If you can't see the hurt this causes, I suggest you read back through the thread to pain some jewish posters have expressed at this.

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